Best Value/Most Reliable boiler?

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rpfutrell

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We are looking at replacing our boiler and hot water heater this year with a high efficiency combo unit. After some initial research and quotes it is hard to determine what boiler/ indirect hot water tanks are the better units to go with? After getting a few quotes, its really hard to figure out what units are more reputable, or offer a better value?

I usually rely on Consumer Reports for researching many of my purchases, but given the multiple variables related to HVAC systems I can understand how it would be difficult to rate them. Yet still, I'd like to ask:

If all things were considered equal, including the contractor, which of these boilers brands would be consider the Best Value/Most Reliable?

Since most of us only buy 1-2 of these in a lifetime, it can be difficult to determine what is the better product when considering Performance, Reliability, Warranty, Cost. Unfortunately there comparison info is difficult to find. That said, Thanks to those that have put this site together, maintaining and monitoring it! It's been very helpful.

My biggest challenge is deciding on a product, once I know the product I want, I feel good about being able to identify a quality contractor to install it. Most of my quotes are for products in the 75k BTU range, with a couple well above.
 

Dana

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The most important thing is to get a boiler that is sized correctly for both your space heating loads (size the indirect for your hot water loads) , AND the radiation. Even the very best boilers will short-cycle themselves into an early grave, low efficiency and high maintenance if oversized for the radiation &/or house.

Most homes in MA (even older homes) have heat loads under 50,000 BTU/hr, many are under 30,000 BTU/hr. So when evaluating modulating boilers it's more important to look at the MINIMUM modulation levels than the maximum. The amount of radiation per heating zone relative to the min-fire output determines just how low the water temperature can be without short-cycling, which determines just how much condensing efficiency you can get out of the thing.

Combi boilers have to be sized for the maximum hot water loads, which often directly conflicts with the optimal sizing for the space heating load, which is why indirect tanks are often a better solution. There are also condensing combi units with integrated tanks that can perform well and with the thermal mass of the tank makes it nearly impossible to short-cycle them. The HTP Versa series (the Versa Flame is on the energy Star list) is designed & assembled in MA, with good local support, and suitable for a wide range of applications, but may or may not be the ideal solution for you.

To decide what the appropriate models are for YOU we need more information. If you have a fuel-use history and a ZIP code (for outside design temp & weather history purposes), your mid-to-late winter gas bills would be sufficient to put a firm upper bound on your space heating loads. The number of zones, and the size & type of radiation on each zone would also be important factors, as well as the size of the biggest tub you have to fill, the number of bathrooms & occupants, etc.
 

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Dana --- Thank you for your insight and I apologize for not providing enough information on the first go around, to help me make an informed decision. Hopefully this post will redeem me somewhat and provide the information needed.

I'm surprised your suggestion, HTP, didn't make it on any quotes being it's a local product, but I suspect the units I do have quotes on have a better profit margin for the contractor?

So since much of this is german to me, I was hoping given the info below you and others could:

  • Advise me on what would be the better value vs. the better product, money aside, to help guide me in my decision.
  • Tips or suggestions on how I might be able to negotiate a better price on any of these units or other models, I'm all eyes and ears here!!
  • How does one calculate, based on the products and information below, the expected payback/ROI? This is more my curiosity than a deciding factor, no??

So here is my homework, and thank you in advance.


Home Info:
Built: 1997
Type: 2 Story Colonial w/ basement
Baths: 3.5 (only one bath has tub, rest are showers)
Sqft: 3300 / 2888 heated
Current System: Natural Gas Boiler & Standby Hot Water Heater. Boiler is 3 zones, plus a gas fireplace in our Family room.
Family Size: 4 total, 2 adults 2 younger children under 5



Contractor A's Design Info:
** This contractor appeared to be more detailed vs. Contractor B, so while he is more expensive I would lean towards trusting his number more for the purpose of any discussion

upload_2015-8-15_16-48-34.png



Contractors B's Design Info:

upload_2015-8-15_16-46-49.png


Contractor B's Design Conditions:

upload_2015-8-15_16-45-37.png



Below are the quotes I obtained, 4 different contractors 5 different products

upload_2015-8-15_16-49-56.png

48 Months Usage:

upload_2015-8-15_16-51-21.png
 
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Dana

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The two contractors used different weather stations with significantly different outside design temps. The 0F calculation Contractor B used for Plymouth is colder than the 99% outside design temperature for Plymout, and not surprisingly, comes in with bigger heat load numbers than Contractor A's calculations using Norwell's +9F outside design temperature. Weymouth's 99% outside design temp is +11F, Taunton's is +9F, so if that's your general location I'd be more inclined to trust Contractor A's load calculation of ~50,000 BTU/hr, but I'd never trust it completely.

Looking at the fuel use numbers for the biggest use months, the 2/20/15 fuel use over 29 days was 278 therms (or is that ccf?), or 9.58621 therms per day, or 0.39943 therms (39,943 BTU) per hour. Burned in a mid-efficiency cast iron boiler at 82% efficiency (you didn't really say) that's an average of (0.82 x 39,943=)32,763 BTU /hr that went into the house over that period. (The rest went up the flue.)

That was at an average outdoor temp of 16.4F. Using a presumptive heating/cooling balance point of 60F (might be bit low), that's (60F-16.4F=) 43.6 F heating degrees. So your heating constant using base 60F is 32,763 BTU/hr/43.6 F= 751 BTU/degree hour.

If you assume an outside design temp of +9F and a balance point of +60F, that's ( 69F - 9F=) 51 F heating degrees, which implies a heat load of 51F x 751 BTU/degree-hour= 38,301 BTU/hr.

If you assume an outdoor design temp of 0F that's 60F heating-degrees, for an implied heat load of 60F x 751BTU/degree-hour= 45,060.

Unless you were in Belize for a week during that period and had the thermostat turned way down, it's unlikely that your true heat load is over 45,000 BTU/hr @ 0F. And since your 99% temperature bin is more likely to be 9-10F, the 99% heat load is probably more like 40,000 BTU/hr.

Which means Contractor A's selection of the ALP 105 is ridiculously oversized, since it's output is over 2x your heat load at 0F, which means you're covered down to -60F, a temperature most recently seen in MA during the last ice age. The oversizing has consequences, since the min-fire output is is about 20,000 BTU/hr literally HALF your design heat load, at it's MINIMUM fire, and probably too high to run your smaller zones at condensing temperatures without short-cycling. In that lineup the more appropriate boiler would be the ALP080, which would still have you covered down to -15F or so, but has a min-fire output of 15,000 BTU/hr, which means it will modulate most of the time rather than cycle, and at least has a shot at being able to run at condensing temps without short-cycling. (Even if your heat load were actually the 53K or whatever, it would be a more appropriate choice than the -105.)

The Lochinvar KBN-081 has very similar min-fire specs as the ALP080, and is the appropriate choice in that line-up.

The Weil McLain WM97+110 is also oversized with the same issues as the ALP-110. The WM97+070 would be even more appropriately sized, with a min-fire output of about 13,300 BTU/hr. If you can have him re-quote for the smaller boiler, that may be the best value of the quotes you have. It's a decent boiler, but has an aluminum heat exchanger a bit more sensitive to water chemistry than some of the others.

The Buderus 142-24 is appropriately sized, also with an aluminum heat exchanger.

The GWM-0751IE isn't ridiculously oversized, and has a min-fire output of ~14K, and a stainless steel heat exchangers. But it's likely that the GWM-050IE would still cover you with margin, and may be a more appropriate choice.

To figure out the most optimal min-fire, range to be looking at, how much radiation and what type do you have on each of the zones, by zone (eg:, 50' of baseboard on zone 1, then 115' on zone 2, and 83' on zone 3 etc.)?

And for a more careful fuel-use against heating degree-day estimate, what are the input and DOE output numbers on your existing boiler, and what is your ZIP code?
 

rpfutrell

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Awesome feedback! Where do I submit my donation, or does dinner and drinks work too?? :)
We have family up in Worcester area...


Ok, so a little more info to fine tune things

Zip code is 02359, Pembroke MA
We sit between Weymouth and Plymouth. So I'm thinking we will have an 0F of 10-11.

While I'm getting my head wrapped around it all :confused: .... I should probably point out the following, and provide additional info needed:

Current Gear:
Weil-McLain Series 12
Model: CG-4-SPDN
Input BTU/hr: 105,000
Capacity: 88,000
AFUE: 80.4%

Other factors:
Gas Insert Fireplace that I just realized is less efficient than the boiler above at 76%. This heats the first floor nicely and provides ambiance, but clearly at a price. I need to refrain from using it, unless entertaining ... It's not designed with efficiency in mind anyhow, and has a somewhat cumbersome remote control that has minimal programmable features. Anyway all in, I use natural gas for boiler, hot water, fireplace insert and Clothes Dryer.

Now back-filling your calculation with the 80.4% AFUE my BTU/hr is down to 32,114 BTU/hr.
Also adjusting the balance point upward to 65F would bring me up to 661BTU/degree hour, No?

Now this is where you lose me ....

If you assume an outside design temp of +9F and a balance point of +60F, that's ( 69F - 9F=) 51 F heating degrees, which implies a heat load of 51F x 751 BTU/degree-hour= 38,301 BTU/hr.

I don't follow how you arrive at 51, is this not 60F, by standard math? Am I missing something?

When it comes to right sizing a boiler for my home and considering my usage for 4 different appliances (boiler, fireplace, hot water and dryer) I'm comparing apples to apples on everything except the dryer, right? If that is true, the calculation we arrive at would only be skewed by my dryers usage, No?

Finally, you have me appreciating the min-fire specs too and can see how that would play into the equipments life cycle... My radiation is as follows:

1st Floor: 81 feet
2nd Floor: 67 feet
Basement: 19 feet
Total 167 (all baseboard)
 

Dana

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What, I'm not allowed typos? :)

Make that 60F-9F= 51F in 'merican math...

If you use base 65F it gives you a lower constant, but 5 more heating degrees, call it 56F heating degrees between the outside design temp and the heating/cooling balance. Using the higher heating degree base results in a lower implied heat load overall, and we're trying to find a reasonable estimate of the upper bound of what it really is.

If you use overnight setbacks the average room temp is lower, and the heat load lower, which also shifts the heating/cooling balance point lower. Also, in post 1990 homes base 60F is closer to reality as the heating/cooling balance point for most houses. Base 65F was a reasonable model for 1950s houses with 2x4 framing, R13-R20 in the attic and clear-glass storm windows. Base 60F is closer to the mean for house built with 2x6/R19 and U0.35 low-E windows (or U0.50 sealed clear glass double-panes), and R30-R38 in the attic.

The reason you do the math on the mid-winter big bills rather than the whole year or some other random month is that the error introduces by other burners becomes much smaller. If you did the same math on your May or June bill you'd be off by quite a bit. Solar heat gain also introduces an error in the other direction, offsetting the other-appliances' fuel-use error, and the solar gain in winter is much smaller than the spring/fall seasons, which also reduces the magnitude of the error. For the January/February bills your space heating use it BY FAR the elephant in the fuel-use menagerie- the others are all mouse or kitten sized uses. Hot water use is usually the second biggest but you use the dryer & hot water in summer too- the 11 therms in July is a single digit percentage of the 278 therms on the February bill. In practical terms the solar gain & other uses error ends up being in the statistical noise. The exact time of day of the meter reading can introduce an error that big, but all of those factors don't add up to 10% of the calculated load number.

For Pembroke +10F for is about right for the 99th percentile temperature bin- close enough to the real design temp for sizing a boiler. That makes it 50F heating degrees.

The 278 therms burned over 29 days (696 hours) is 39,942 BTU/hr average input, and at 80.4% efficiency is indeed 32,114 BTU/hr out at an average temp of +16.4F. Assuming a balance point of 60F that's (60F - 16.4F= ) 43.6 heating degrees, and a constant of 32,114/43.6= 737 BTU/degree-hour. For a design temp of +10F, or 50F heating degrees, the implied load is then 36,850 BTU/hr

If one assume a balance point base of 65F, an average temp of 16.4F is then 48.6 heating degrees, and a constant of 32,114/48.6= 661 BTU/degree-hour. The design temp of +1oF it's 55F heating degrees below the base temp, for an implied load of 661BTU/degree-hour x 55F= 36, 355 BTU/hr.

That's about 500BTU/hr below the implied temp when using base 60F, but still the same ball park. The heat output of two sleeping humans is about 500 BTU/hr. But really, the heat load on the boiler is about 36-37K, not the contractors' calculated 50K- 58K. If you project down to -10F for 70F heating degrees (base 60F), the heat load at -10F is 70F x 737 BTU/degree-hour- 51,590 BTU/hr finally hitting the range of their calculated numbers at much higher temps. While it might hit -10F during a Polar Vortex event in Pembroke, it might not be that low again within the lifecycle of a boiler, and even with a 50K-in/45K-out boiler you still wouldn't get very cold at -10F- the 6590 BTU/hr shortfall at 5AM on the coldest day of the decade is only about 2000 watts- a single 1800 Watt space heater and leaving the TV and a few lights on (or firing up the gas fireplace) would cover the difference if you really needed to.

Now, regarding the min-fire output an short cycling on zone calls...

Fin tube baseboard puts out about 550-600 BTU/hr per running foot an an average water temp of 180F. But to get condensing efficiency out of a condensing boilers requires that the water entering the boiler be 125F or lower, otherwise the heat exchanger will be above the dew point of the gas exhaust gas and any condensation will be in the flue, where it won't be transfering heat into the heating system. In practical terms an average water temp of 120F or lower is required to get you into the mid-90s or higher, which means a boiler output temp of 125F or lower. At an average temp of 120F fin tube baseboard only emits about 200 BTU/hr per running foot. So at condensing temps your zone radiation can only emit:

1st Floor: 81 feet x 200 BTU/hr = 16,200 BTU/hr

2nd Floor: 67 feet x 200 BTU/hr= 13,400 BTU/hr

Basement: 19 feet x 200 BTU/hr= 3800 BTU/hr

Note, the output of the fin-tube of your first & second floors 29,600 BTU/hr which is about 80% of your design temp load, so if you tweak in the temperature settings you will be able to get condensing efficiency nearly all of the time, and you can actually hit the 95% as-used AFUE range.

The basement zone calling for heat on it's own is going to short cycle on zone calls with any of those boilers since it's emittance is a small fraction of the min-fire output. But it's probably used much less often so it's not going to impact you average efficiency or the boiler's life, if you size the boiler such that calls for heat from the other zones are very long, all but guaranteeing that a call for heat from the basement zone will overlap with a call from one or more of the other zones.

A boiler with a min-fire output of 15,000 BTU/hr or less will do OK (note, that's not the ALP-105, but the ALP-080 is). Something with an even lower minimum firing rate would be even better. The GWM-0751IE has an output of about 14K, but the GWM-050IE's output is about 9.5K, and would be MUCH better matched to your radiation, since it'll modulate rather than cycle on/off. It's good for 46K out at max fire, which is well above your design heat load, but will start losing ground a bit when temps drop below 0F. It'll work, but not with much margin.

Something like the HTP EFT-55 would be a better fit, since it can deliver over 50K at full bore, giving you some sub-zero margin, and has a min-fire output of about 12K, which gives it some modulating room in the condensing temperature range with your radiation. Another good fit is the Lochinvar WH-055 , which delivers ~52K at high-fire, but modulates down to ~10K. Push back on your Lochinvar guy- see if he'll quote you on the WH-055, and call HTP and get them to recommend a local contractor who installs Elite series boilers. Either one of those are pretty much a slam-dunk for your load and radiation parameters. DON'T let anybody talk you into a bigger boiler than that- you have your gas fireplace as auxilliary backup for temps below the 99% outside design temp, and The EFT-55 or WH-055 output specs slightly exceed even your contractor's Manual-J load calc @ +9F, which is good enough.

You can run the fuel use/load numbers on a few other winter-month billing periods too. Most of them should be in the same ball-park, but there will be variances attributable to hot water & dryer use in a family of four. Unless you were actually not heating the place, that biggest-use bill is going to be the best model of your actual heat load, and it's probably still slightly higher than reality. Your existing boiler is almost 3x oversized for the load, leading to cycling losses and overheating the boiler-room type efficiency hits. With a right-sized condensing boiler the boiler room will no longer be the warmest place in the house, and that's a GOOD thing.
 

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Ok, so Contractor A reached out to me and said he chose the ALP105 because the Indirect HW calls for a boiler with a minimum output of 99 MBTU/hr.

So If I use an EFT-55, GWM-050, ALP080 or other similar suggested product are all Indirect HW tanks going to have some minimum output listed? If not, how can I be assured that when the kids are in the teens taking showers at night, while a load of laundry is running and someone is doing dishes, that we won't run out of hot water... hrmmm

I'm reviewing HTP's site and some Buderus info, but don't see that same MMBTU output reference... TIA
 

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Ok, so Contractor A reached out to me and said he chose the ALP105 because the Indirect HW calls for a boiler with a minimum output of 99 MBTU/hr.

So If I use an EFT-55, GWM-050, ALP080 or other similar suggested product are all Indirect HW tanks going to have some minimum output listed? If not, how can I be assured that when the kids are in the teens taking showers at night, while a load of laundry is running and someone is doing dishes, that we won't run out of hot water... hrmmm

I'm reviewing HTP's site and some Buderus info, but don't see that same MMBTU output reference... TIA

The first-hour hot water specs for indirects have a large component that is based on the size of the boiler, and will sometimes give a couple of numbers based on different boiler sizes. But the only important spec (and it's not in the data sheet) is the first 5 minute gallons, for when you're filling a tub. If zoned as priority, the amount of heat going into the indirect with ANY of these boilers is going to be 1.5-2x that of a typical standalone 40-50 gallon gas fired tank. If the tank volume and recovery time of a 40-50 gallon gas fired hot water heater covers your needs, a similarly sized indirect and a small to middling mod-con will do even better/faster.

If contractor A thinks differently and digs in on the ALP-105 he's clueless- move on. There are plenty of folks in the upper midwest where the outdoor design temps are in negative double digits heating with 50K boilers and and heating hot water with a 40 gallon indirect.

For the Endless Shower experience, a 4" x48" or 3" x 60" drainwater heat recovery heat exchanger is a far better solution than oversizing the boiler for the heat load. ( I'd be dead or divorced by now without it! :) ) An occupancy/vacancy sensor switch on the bathroom light that times out 10 minutes after the last occupancy was sensed has also proven useful for notifying the resident teen at my house that it's time to get out of the shower. (Full disclosure: I've managed to time it out more than once too. ;-) )
 

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What ever you do don't buy TriangleTube Prestige. Mine is 6 years old. I've had a plumber here twice every year since it was installed. He apologizes every time and curses the day he put it in. He said "You are not the only one! We put a dozen of these in new homes five or six years ago and we're there all the time." If you search for other reviews you'll find a place that gives a "Very Unsatisfied" rating by 65% of all reveiws.

We have to get parts out of Denver because the local wholesaler stopped selling Triangle Tube. They're cagey about it. I asked "Why don't you sell them anymore?" He replied (with an obviously nervous voice) "I'm not sure why but our distributor stopped offering them. That's all I know."

They stopped selling them because they all caused trouble.
 

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Whatever Dana suggests is what I would buy. I took his recommendation for the HTP UFT 80 for my house in NH and it’s been great. One $11 sensor died after two heating seasons but that was simple. He knows his stuff!
 

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Whatever Dana suggests is what I would buy. I took his recommendation for the HTP UFT 80 for my house in NH and it’s been great. One $11 sensor died after two heating seasons but that was simple. He knows his stuff!

Naw, I just make it up as I go along, but often I get lucky! ;)

I'm not sure what Sandy's point is in dredging up this 3 year old thread- was it just do bash Triangle Tube?

A lot of installers spend more time criticizing the product than reading the manual or taking the installer training. Triangle Tube had a very popular series of fire-tube modcon boilers a decade ago and may have succumbed to their own success, but they're not total dogs on the reliability front. Micro-zoning with minimalist zone radiation combined with gross oversizing for the whole house load can bring any modulating condensing boiler to it's knees and an early grave.

Some of the guys who were thrilled with the Triangle Tube Solo-60s and Solo-110s a decade are now installing UFT series boilers by the dozen. It may be too early to tell what the reliability numbers will, look like in another decade (or how many of those will be installer/operator error rather than manfacturing or design defect) but infant mortality so far seems to be rare. The newer crops of fire-tube mod-cons have much bigger turn-down ranges, which makes them a bit more forgiving than the TT Solo series, but the more idiot-proof they make something the more creative the idiots become...
 

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Naw, I just make it up as I go along, but often I get lucky! ;)

I'm not sure what Sandy's point is in dredging up this 3 year old thread- was it just do bash Triangle Tube?

A lot of installers spend more time criticizing the product than reading the manual or taking the installer training. Triangle Tube had a very popular series of fire-tube modcon boilers a decade ago and may have succumbed to their own success, but they're not total dogs on the reliability front. Micro-zoning with minimalist zone radiation combined with gross oversizing for the whole house load can bring any modulating condensing boiler to it's knees and an early grave.

Some of the guys who were thrilled with the Triangle Tube Solo-60s and Solo-110s a decade are now installing UFT series boilers by the dozen. It may be too early to tell what the reliability numbers will, look like in another decade (or how many of those will be installer/operator error rather than manfacturing or design defect) but infant mortality so far seems to be rare. The newer crops of fire-tube mod-cons have much bigger turn-down ranges, which makes them a bit more forgiving than the TT Solo series, but the more idiot-proof they make something the more creative the idiots become...

Not meaning to hijack the thread but I do have a quick question for you. This is the first year I’m heating the basement and I’m tracking thermostat on time from an ecobee 3. We keep the basement heated to 66 right now and It’s saying the boiler is coming on about once an hour for about 15-25 minutes at a time equaling about 15-25 times a day just for that zone. I’m not paying attention to if the boiler is burning the entire time but I’m almost positive it is especially with it limited to 60% fire rate but any case I feel like 20+ times a day is a lot. I will say the first floor is not coming on as much due to it though. Just worried about more wear and tear and higher bills. Do you think that’s a lot of calls for heat?
 

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I'm not sure it's even possible to "hijack" a thread that's been dead for three years, eh?

The burn times & frequency are FAR more important than how long it takes to satisfy the thermostat. Lots of calls for heat don't wear out the boiler, lots of ignition cycles for short burns do. Running the UFT-080W continuously at it's MINIMUM firing rate (which is 10% of max fire, not 60%) without it cycling on/off takes about 35-40' of baseboard, or 150-160 square feet EDR of radiator, and if it's delivering 15-25 minute burns to satisfy the zone call that's just fine. If the calls for heat from the basement zone is overlapping in time with calls from other zones it usually won't matter-it'll burn continuously.

Cycling the thermostat 25 times per day could be that the basement is over-radiated a bit for it's actual load, so it overshoots a bit and turns off. The differential on many thermostats can be tweaked up or down to limit that. But one call per hour isn't strange if it's a fairly tight temperature window.

True short cycling of a low mass boiler would be way more than 5 burns per hour (120+ burns per day) at average burn times less than 3 minutes. If it's not cycling on/off several times during those 15-25 minute calls for heat from the basement zone it's not a problem.
 

DR-DEATH

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I'm not sure it's even possible to "hijack" a thread that's been dead for three years, eh?

The burn times & frequency are FAR more important than how long it takes to satisfy the thermostat. Lots of calls for heat don't wear out the boiler, lots of ignition cycles for short burns do. Running the UFT-080W continuously at it's MINIMUM firing rate (which is 10% of max fire, not 60%) without it cycling on/off takes about 35-40' of baseboard, or 150-160 square feet EDR of radiator, and if it's delivering 15-25 minute burns to satisfy the zone call that's just fine. If the calls for heat from the basement zone is overlapping in time with calls from other zones it usually won't matter-it'll burn continuously.

Cycling the thermostat 25 times per day could be that the basement is over-radiated a bit for it's actual load, so it overshoots a bit and turns off. The differential on many thermostats can be tweaked up or down to limit that. But one call per hour isn't strange if it's a fairly tight temperature window.

True short cycling of a low mass boiler would be way more than 5 burns per hour (120+ burns per day) at average burn times less than 3 minutes. If it's not cycling on/off several times during those 15-25 minute calls for heat from the basement zone it's not a problem.

I didn’t even realize this post was 3 years old lol. Sandy threw me off with randomly posting today.

Interesting you think it’s overradiated maybe. It’s 300 sq, walls are insulated but not sure how much but def fiberglass batts. (Hoping they left an air gap between foundation...) no insulation in ceiling and 14 feet of baseboard. I figured it was not enough radiation but that makes sense it would heat up too fast and then come on more etc.
 

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Almost all basements are "over radiated" in terms of what it takes to heat them- basement heat loads are pretty tiny. At the same time they are (like yours) UNDER radiated for what it takes to keep the boiler from cycling during extended calls for heat from just that zone.

With only 14' of baseboard it will cycle quite a bit when it's the only zone calling for heat. At ~120F AWT fin tube is only emitting ~200 BTU/hr per running foot, or 2800 BTU/hr. The UFT-080W at min-fire would be putting in about 7600 BTU/hr, 4800 BTU/hr or 80 BTU/minute more than the baseboard is emitting, so the water in the active loop is going to heat up. With the UFT there's about 25lbs of water in the boiler itself (quite a bit more than water-tube boilers) probably another 8-10 lbs of water in the radiation loop, at most 40lbs total. So the rate at which the temperature is rising at 80BTU/40lbs= 2F per minute or quicker. If the overshoot above the outdoor reset's setpoint is 5F, with a re-fire at 5F under the setpoint you'd have a 10F swing, and about a 5 minute burn with about 8-10 minutes between burns, ~4 burns per hour, which is NOT a disaster. If there's less water mass in the loop or a tighter swing between burner-off & refire the cycles will be more frequent, with shorter burns. If it's satisfying the thermostat in 15-25 minutes it's probably only 1-2 burns per call, but it could be more.

So over the weekend try spending some quality time in the basement, just you, the boiler and a watch. Turn down all the other thermostats, turn the basement thermostat up by 5-10F and time the burns and the intervals between burns for an hour, see what you come up with. If the average burn is only 2 minutes and getting on toward 10 burns/hour (unlikely) you may want to take corrective action. If it's 3+ minutes and fewer than 5 burns/hour fuggedaboudit.
 

DR-DEATH

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So I ran a test today. Turned thermostats down on first and second floor and let basement go down to 65 and kick on with a desired temp of 66.


The boilerwater temp was already 122 when I went down there so it must have been calling for heat upstairs on the other zones shortly before the test. (Def wasn’t on when I turned the tstats down) it Burned for 35 seconds and turned off... quickly reaching 145 degrees. The pump quickly the got water down to 107 and then it kicked burner on again and held 142-145 degrees steady for 15 minutes straight and until thermostat was satisfied. (Total second burn time was almost exactly 15 minutes to satisfy t stat)

I’m surprised it was able to hold a burn at 144 degrees for 15 minutes as I figured it would short cycle since the amount of baseboard is fairly small.

The boiler has a heating post purge pump setting of 1 min to 5 mins. Default is 1. Obviously it takes a bit to cool down 145 degree water without opening any other zones so if it calls for heat again shortly after I could see it reaching set point quickly until it can reintroduce cold water from the zone but I’m thinking the basement zones water should easily come down much quicker than what’s left in the hot boiler.

Do you think I would benefit from increasing the pump purge time to help cycle and cool down the water? And now that I think about it I don’t know if it will let me run the purge time longer with zone valves because it can’t pump water if they are closed? I don’t remember the post purge pump time being a minute long and almost feel like it turned pump off right away when thermostat was satisfied.

Anyways 2 burns in 15 minutes doesn’t seem bad at all even if the first one lasted only 35 seconds until colder zone water mixed back in. (Shouldn’t happen much with 2 other zones that can run concurrently etc)


Almost all basements are "over radiated" in terms of what it takes to heat them- basement heat loads are pretty tiny. At the same time they are (like yours) UNDER radiated for what it takes to keep the boiler from cycling during extended calls for heat from just that zone.

With only 14' of baseboard it will cycle quite a bit when it's the only zone calling for heat. At ~120F AWT fin tube is only emitting ~200 BTU/hr per running foot, or 2800 BTU/hr. The UFT-080W at min-fire would be putting in about 7600 BTU/hr, 4800 BTU/hr or 80 BTU/minute more than the baseboard is emitting, so the water in the active loop is going to heat up. With the UFT there's about 25lbs of water in the boiler itself (quite a bit more than water-tube boilers) probably another 8-10 lbs of water in the radiation loop, at most 40lbs total. So the rate at which the temperature is rising at 80BTU/40lbs= 2F per minute or quicker. If the overshoot above the outdoor reset's setpoint is 5F, with a re-fire at 5F under the setpoint you'd have a 10F swing, and about a 5 minute burn with about 8-10 minutes between burns, ~4 burns per hour, which is NOT a disaster. If there's less water mass in the loop or a tighter swing between burner-off & refire the cycles will be more frequent, with shorter burns. If it's satisfying the thermostat in 15-25 minutes it's probably only 1-2 burns per call, but it could be more.

So over the weekend try spending some quality time in the basement, just you, the boiler and a watch. Turn down all the other thermostats, turn the basement thermostat up by 5-10F and time the burns and the intervals between burns for an hour, see what you come up with. If the average burn is only 2 minutes and getting on toward 10 burns/hour (unlikely) you may want to take corrective action. If it's 3+ minutes and fewer than 5 burns/hour fuggedaboudit.
 
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