Basement Bathroom - Sewage Ejector or Saniflo?

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BostonDIYer

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Hi,

I'm about to start work on a basement bathroom project. It's going to have a sink, a shower, and a toilet. Here's my situation:

House built circa 1930. 82 inch clearance between concrete floor and joists. Floor was basically a rat slab in an adjacent part of the basement but seems a bit more solid here. Here's a picture of my plans:

cVV7O6.png


I'm trying to decide between a Sewage Ejector system or a Saniflo SaniPLUS.

If I use a SaniPLUS, it would be behind the toilet and I would run the sink's drain and the shower drain to it. Problem is, the shower stall I'm looking at is 75 inches tall. I would need to put it up on a 2x6 platform to accommodate the necessary 1/4" per foot slope to the pump. 5.5" platform + .5" plywood + 75" stall + 1/2" sheetrock = 81.5". Cutting it awfully close to that 82" ceiling. I would also need to chip into the concrete to fit the p-trap.

The alternative is a Sewage Ejector system. It seems like this would be preferable, but I'm concerned about the concrete cutting/breaking. The Sewage Ejector pump would go in the "unfinished area" shown in the image above. I guess what it comes down to is, is it possible for me to cut or break into the concrete without an enormous amount of hassle? In the other part of the basement I broke into areas of the floor where the slab was very thin and dug down to fill them with concrete. The slab was not hard to break apart. Here it seems more solid. Should I just try breaking into it and see what happens?

So which would be best for my situation? And can anyone estimate how much it would cost in Mass. to have a plumber do it all (concrete cutting, venting, etc)? Just for labor, I'd buy the pump, toilet, etc.

Thanks
 

Jadziedzic

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Is that red line on the drawing an exterior wall? If so, what are your plans for access to the oil tank when it needs to be replaced? Unless it's made of some inert material (fiberglass) the typical oil tank used here in New England will rust out along the bottom and need to be replaced. (I've heard that some home owners insurance companies won't insure tanks that are older than 25 years due to leakage concerns.)

Putting plumbing fixtures on platforms screams "hack" to many potential buyers, so an ejector pump seems appropriate. Cutting/breaking through concrete slabs is not all that difficult once you get a hole started through the slab. Get estimates from local plumbers and see if they'll cut you a break if you do the dirty work of cutting through the slab.

Are you aware that DIY plumbing in Mass is illegal? When I lived there many years ago it was impossible for a homeowner to pull a plumbing permit; only licensed plumbers can legally work on plumbing in the People's Republic of Massachusetts.
 

BostonDIYer

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Thanks for the response - yup, the red lines are exterior walls. The plan is to leave enough space that the oil tank can slide out towards the unfinished area. There will be a few inches to spare to allow this, width-wise.

In terms of length, the segment of wall opposite the door to the bathroom will be built as removable with minimal destruction to the bathroom (no pipes or electrical wires, separately built wall/sill plate, etc). Without that wall segment there is enough room to slide the tank length-wise. The plan needs a little more tweaking (wall segment perpendicular to bathroom door will need to move too) but the basic idea is tank replacement will definitely require some destruction, but good planning will minimize the extent. The oil tank is in good shape right now.

Not planning on pulling a permit for the reason you stated. I'm a pretty anal-retentive planner so I review all the codes and make schematics and such. Once I'm done I plan on having a licensed plumber willing to work without a permit review all of my work and actually connect it all to the vent stack and sewage pipe and put another vent thru the roof for the sewage ejector.

The biggest reason for no permit in addition to cost is, this is an old house and there are existing code deficiencies (not plumbing/safety related, but obvious mickey-moused crap in need of remediation). I've been told when you're doing new work they'll make you fix all the deficiencies first, which means in part a few major plumbing relocations. That's planned in the medium-term, but not in the current budget.

Besides, if caught all they can do according to MA case law is order you to stop and make you pay a $100 fine. They can't make you remove it unless there's evidence of code violations or inferior workmanship.
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, MA has a web-based product approved list for anything plumbing. Check that website to verify the bits you are interested in are on that list. The nasty thing is that they can sell pretty much anything, even if it is not approved for use in MA.

Generally, they can only hit you up to correct bits you've touched or are adding, not existing stuff unless it is a safety hazard (in which case, it should be fixed anyways IMHO!).

WHere does the sewer line exit the house? YOu might not need a pump. Gravity is always the preferred way to drain things unless there is some extenuating circumstance.

There are places that specialize in cutting concrete, and they tend to get it done quickly and with nice lines. If the slab is not really structural, it may break up fairly easily. It's unlikely that it is very flat or level...this can be an issue. I might consider removing the concrete around where the new bathroom is going and maybe digging it out a bit to get more height. You'd have to deal with the approach to make it reasonable.
 

BostonDIYer

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Interesting about the approved product list.

The sewer line exits the house about 3 ft above the basement floor, it sticks out of the exterior wall right at the bottom of my diagram in the unfinished area. It runs parallel to the joist above it, which is under the upstairs bathroom wet wall. That joist is completely severed in a few places due to mickey-moused plumbing work over the years. In other places it has notches through 1/2 - 3/4 of the joist. The cut areas are fully supported by a stud wall and have been for 35+ years, so I don't think it's an immediate hazard, but an inspector might. Fixing it is definitely in the medium to long term plan but it would require relocations of fixtures and pipes that is outside of the current budget. I also don't want them to see the 2 finished rooms I put in without permits adjacent to the proposed bathroom ;)

I'll plan on trying to break up the concrete myself. This area is relatively flat and level so I was thinking I'd put down some SilFlo 220 self leveling compound where it's going to be tiled and call it a day. I've got 6' 10" to work with and code requires 6' 8", so I figure sheet rock w/o strapping for the ceiling takes 1/2 inch, SLC takes another 1/2, then tile, should make code, if barely. The other finished areas have 1" XPS with two offset layers of 7/16 OSB glued and screwed, and a floating floor on top of that, so there'll already be a roughly 2" step down to deal with.
 

Cacher_Chick

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I mark out where the trenches and basin are going and saw cut the concrete with a diamond blade. You can rent a saw if you need to.
 

BostonDIYer

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One (hopefully) final question:

The water meter hooks up to a 3/4" copper pipe above the oil tank, which then runs to the rest of the house. My plan was to change the 3/4" copper to 3/4" pex, install a tee, and connect that to a closed 3-port manifold (3/4" in, 1/2" out) for cold water supply. I've read that 3/4" PEX has a significantly reduced water flow. I'm concerned because unlike the hot water, this is going to be installed right where the water comes in, thus potentially creating a bottleneck for the rest of the house.

What do you guys think?
 

BostonDIYer

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On second thought, I just noticed the line branches off before this to another 3/4" copper line going to the garden hose.

Would installing a 3/4" pex tee kill the pressure to the garden hose (even if nothing was being used in the bathroom)?
 

Jadnashua

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3/4" pex's ID is not that much bigger than 1/2" copper...if you want to maintain pressure and volume, consider 1" pex. But, given the fairly small amount of pipe you need, I'd probably just go with copper. Most hose bibs on their own won't make much of a difference which you choose UNLESS something else is running in the house using water. If the new bath is the only thing on a 3/4" pex branch and the existing stuff stays on the 3/4" copper, it should be fine unless you're planning a human car wash with lots of body sprays.
 

BostonDIYer

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It's looking like I'm going to have about 15 inches of clearance from the front of the toilet to the wall.

I am aware that various codes require 21 inches. However, it's my understanding that Massachusetts does not have a prescriptive standard for plumbing fixture clearances. If anyone can point me to any authoritative source that says otherwise, please let me know - this is what I've been able to find:

Massachusetts Residential Code is based on the International Residential Code 2009 (IRC) and a separate package of Massachusetts amendments to the IRC. The MA Amendments are found in 780 CMR 51.00: Massachusetts Residential Code.

The amendments essentially strike out every IRC code that pertains to plumbing and instead incorporate by reference the State Plumbing Code. For example, the following sections of the IRC that contain prescriptive fixture clearances:

R307 Replace in its entirety as follows:
R307.1 Toilet, Bath, and Shower. Requirements of Section R307 shall be in conformance with 248 CMR 10.00: Uniform State Plumbing Code.

P2701.1 Replace all subsections of this chapter as follows:
P2701.1 Scope. For plumbing fixture requirements see 248 CMR 10.00: Uniform State Plumbing Code

So then we look to the Uniform State Plumbing Code, 248 CMR 10.00. The only relevant section is the following:

10.02: Basic Principles

Principle No. 19 -- Fixtures Shall Be Accessible. All plumbing fixtures shall be installed in a manner with respect to clearances for spacing and accessibility for their intended use and cleansing.

If anyone can point me towards any CMR that prescribes fixture clearances for toilets, please let me know - otherwise I'm going to have to assume that Massachusetts doesn't have a prescriptive standard.
 

BostonDIYer

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I have a question - probably mostly theoretical, but bear with me. I've been looking at direct-mount laundry tub pumps like this one.

My question is, in theory, is there any reason one of these couldn't be mounted directly below a shower stall rather than under a sink?
 
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CountryBumkin

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What would the rise be from this pump to drain connection (at least 10ft I assume). So a typical shower head is 2.5 GPM (or 150 GPH).
I don't know what you will do about code requirements (with regards to min. pipe size requirement) but capacity wise, it looks like it should work.
How will you install this (in a pit/sump)? What happens if it breaks during shower (with shower pan full of water) - how do you get to it?

Specs say:
1 1/2" NPT SUCTION INLET AND
DISCHARGE WITH SLIP UNION FOR 1 1/4" CHECK VALVE.
1400 GPH/2', 1200 GPH/4', 1020 GPH/6', 800 GPH/8',
500 GPH/10'

PS. I'm not a plumber - just a curious DIYer.
 

BostonDIYer

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The rise would actually probably only be 4-5 feet, with a horizontal run of ~10-12 feet. Vertical run would be immediate and horizontal run would then have a downward slope to the sewer connection. I'd have to dig out the concrete to make a pit (I'd make a full pit with concrete sides and a bottom to fit the pump in).

It would not meet code due to the 1.5" inlet, but it won't be inspected anyway - and 1.5" is not crazy. If it broke during a shower there are lots of options to empty the pan, the simplest of which would be a wet vac.

This would be a relatively temporary solution until I have the time and money to fully break up the slab and properly install a sewage ejector pump along with XPS insulation, radiant heating, toilet, full vent thru the roof, plumber to install, etc - all of that needs to be done at once and is far too expensive to do right now.
 
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