Ardex AF207 Review

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JohnfrWhipple

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I see lots of chatter of late online for Ardex's AF207.

ft_0313_ProdAccess_img1.jpg

I would like to offer up my review of this Ditra Adhesive. In a two words "It Sucks".

I came to this conclusion after testing the product. I do not think it is a great idea and other than the container (the box) Ardex 8+9 comes in the only other thing Ardex makes I dislike.

If you believe the marketing hype then have at her. If you believe the testing data I did - then leave it to the men trying to save time and money on their projects. I would never use it.

AF-207.png

I love the rapid set logo in the .Jpeg file above. I found after weeks it was still tacky. In my test the brick stuck to the Ditra and the Ditra slide off the plywood test board. On the flip side the testing with Laticrete 254 held over 1600 pounds of water. Roughly 4 times the weight of AF207 under similar conditions.
 
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Eurob

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Hey John , why do you think Ardex will go to so much trouble to design , produce and label a product -- AF 207 -- when they already have mortars for the uncoupling membranes ?

This doesn't make sense , unless they designed it to address specific issues ......... just saying. :)
 

Jadnashua

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What John doesn't seem to understand about uncoupling membranes is that the industry spec for bonding the membrane to the substrate after curing is NLT 50psi. Most uncoupling membranes will shear off their fleece at a bit more to account for variances in installation and still meet the spec. Ditra, in this case, since this is designed for it, even with a mortar typically rates at about 75psi, or about a 50% margin above the spec. As long as the material provides at least the industry standard, the uncoupling membrane can do its job as designed. Shear bond strength is a factor when directly bonding tile to a substrate, but is almost unimportant when it comes to an uncoupling membrane. They're designed for use on horizontal surfaces, have great vertical load capacity, and create what is almost a floating floor with only a minimal bond between the tile/thinset layer and the membrane/floor layer, otherwise, it wouldn't be an uncoupling membrane!
 

JohnfrWhipple

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....This doesn't make sense , unless they designed it to address specific issues ......... just saying. :)

Specific Issues:

1). Cheaper
2). Faster
3). Less Skill
4). Less dust

I had to laugh at the demo. The Ardex rep showed the product and later asked if we could pull it up. I grabbed it and "Pulled it up".

I speak from first hand experience. The glue is not rapid setting. If you where even thinking of such a crazy material I would think it works better with Strata Mat since Strata Mat has holes to allow faster curing.

Tile men have a thirst for speed. This is the issue that is addressed here.

Not quality.

Not Strength.

I would guess that shear and tensile ratings for this product are much much lower than a proper thin-set mix.

Please Note: I do not read nor reply to Jim's posts

 
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JohnfrWhipple

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So this is one of dozens of photos I took while reviewing Ardex AF207, Ditra, Spider Web and concrete board installs. You can see the Ditra on the left where the brick pulled away. To the right was Spider Web set with AF207.

It just slide off the test plank.

This testing should have been done in a lab. I should have paid thousands for it. Maybe the brick should have been grouted. But I know

I set the Brick.
I set the weights.
I tested them fairly.
I found out that AF207 sucks. And sucks bad.
 
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Eurob

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John , you are the king of garage style products testing . LOL

I think there was a good reason why Ardex -- with their so reliable and performant mortars -- did go to the trouble of creating the AF 207 .

I wonder how the brick will be '' pulled off '' if your mark up will be on an horizontal set up ? Maybe you can test it like a '' parking brake style '' and see if it can hold a vehicle in drive mode . None of it would be done like a scientific test ......... but I appreciate your input , as always .

Don't worry , the real installers know why the 50psi standard is the approved benchmark ............
 

Jadnashua

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Since thinset doesn't stick to Ditra, and is only held in place by the plastic dovetails, verses Spiderweb, where there are fibers the thinset locks around, one would expect very different results. People, thinset does NOT stick to Ditra...the thing holding the tile in place is the bond to the tile and the thinset in the trapezoidal squares of the membrane! Those raised ridges are what allow the tile and the thinset to move, absorbing differential motion between the substrate and the tile assembly, and the pockets or pillars of thinset provide the vertical/compressive strength. If it DID stick, it would not have as much of an ability to move without restrictions, and since the tile/thinset bond is not stressed...that doesn't break. IOW, on top of an uncoupling membrane, there is no big reason to have a super strong, sticky thinset. And, if you do use one, if it isn't a rapid setting version, the modifiers in it can take over 60-days to dry out and provide their stated strength. This test is sort of like hitting a piece of glass with a hammer to see how waterproof it is...not relevant!
 

JohnfrWhipple

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....I think there was a good reason why Ardex -- with their so reliable and performant mortars -- did go to the trouble of creating the AF 207 ............

I bet Schluter asked them to make it. Ardex makes Kerdi Coll for Schluter (at least that's the word on the street). Whatca wanna bet Schluter private labels this crap in Europe and sells it under a German sounding name?

Lets pretend that the subfloor is not true. Lets pretend that the tile installers sets his tile with a good 3/4" of thin-set. Lets pretend that the tile's thin-set shrinks a little. Oh no.... IS that the AF207 pulling away?

LOL

This product will disappear from the shelfs in four years, three months and two days (plus or minus a week I guess). And all those poor bastards with failures can say "I read the instructions"

INSTALLER ERROR

Try it out men. Set it up. Rig up your own tensile and shear test. I have. I've felt the product a month after I set it. It was still tacky. Never cured.... WTF. Plywood sandwiched with glue and plastic....

No five years field trials.

No TCNA specification.

The kicker is Schluter does not recommend it or list it in their spec book. Is that not a deviation from manufacture specs then? It's glue boys.

Next thing you know Schluter will make stickers for there Kerdi Board....

LOL
 
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ShowerDude

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Nice information here John. Good stuff to know regardless the approval of the MFG themselves.

Id say you are adding A real world hands on view of the claims of these products that may be more valid to me than say..... A lab setting..

just divert the threatening legal emails from "S" or Ardex to your junk inbox, and carry on..


On another note:

Your back yard looks like a Boy Scout camp for tile failure studies. LOL

maybe Jim will come to your next training.......if so I will be flying to Vancouver to witness.....
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Thanks Roberto.

I have never got any threaten emails from anyone. I have had a number of manufactures contact me and explain why I'm testing things wrong.

Mainstream thinking is "Why would someone lie?" "We have tested it - trust us"

You know what an Ant does when it finds new food. It tests it. Before bringing it back home. In Cayman the locals place bits of Baraccuda they catch near a fire ant hill. If the ants eat the fish - so do the locals.

Someone hands me a pail a glue and says it's better than thin-set. I test it.

I buy a shower niche that says it's waterproof and vapour proof. I test it. I have done this four times. two have leaked.

This is all great but when you share info like this on line you have to worry about what others think. Or not.

Of course the proper way to test a foam shower niche is to first tile it. Then grout it. Then add roughly 1.5" of water for two days. Look for leaks. No leaks then pay for a PASS REPORT. This work should be done in a lab. out should be in controlled conditions. Every second filmed. Every possible condition recorded.

I made the mistake of filling the niches up with water and leaving them in my kitchen.




This is an unscientific test. I was told by the head technical person for the company selling these niches that I should make sure that people know that the testing process I used was wrong and that it is garage style. Or Whipple style. Not proper style.

You folks take what you want from my test. I have started to turn these niches into lighted niches. I was making sure they did not leak before I made my modifications to them. The good news is after cutting a huge hole in the top. Adding a LED light diffuser, and waterproofing them. The hold water now for more than four days.

I still have one under soak test. Almost three months. My testing has showed my Ardex 8+9 is a perfect fix for a leaking foam shower niche. But of course why would you want your shower niche waterproof when it's on the wall? Why would you even worry about this? If you buy a foam niche - just fill it with water. Wait 2-4 days. No drips then you got a good one. 1 of the 3 I tested passed this test. 2 did not.

Or you could buy a niche from say Noble Company. I tested theirs same way. Did not leak after 4 weeks. The difference I think in the design. Noble's niche is cut from one piece of foam where the other one is build using a hot glue gun.

Or you can make one from scratch. Which is how I do it anyway.

If you are going to install AF207 for someone and charge them for the work. You best test the crap out. I would not touch the product again.....

 
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Jadnashua

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As opposed to a big horizontal surface that sees the majority of water from a shower (like the pan), how much, and how long is there likely to be standing water in any horizontal surface of a niche? Then, cover it with thinset and tile. How much standing water will there be, and for how long? Maybe some for the duration of the shower, but again, how far will it penetrate? Porcelain tile, to be called porcelain, is less than 0.5%, small grout joints, maybe when fully saturated 5% (maybe less if it is a modified grout and essentially zero if it is epoxy or at the caulk joints). Finish your shower, what little had a chance to penetrate (if any), and it dries out in the hours before it gets used again, even if you have 3-4 people taking a shower a day in there. So, how long must the thing hold 3" of water to work when it is bare before installation? The only time it will see 3" of water again is if the entire house is submerged, then you have much bigger problems.

That is the reasoning why the industry tests, and John's tests do not match up. If you really wanted a bathtub, it would take all of about two minutes to reseal all of the seams, but it is a waste of time and material and money...do it if you want if it makes you feel better.
 

Vegas_sparky

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As opposed to a big horizontal surface that sees the majority of water from a shower (like the pan), how much, and how long is there likely to be standing water in any horizontal surface of a niche? Then, cover it with thinset and tile. How much standing water will there be, and for how long? Maybe some for the duration of the shower, but again, how far will it penetrate? Porcelain tile, to be called porcelain, is less than 0.5%, small grout joints, maybe when fully saturated 5% (maybe less if it is a modified grout and essentially zero if it is epoxy or at the caulk joints). Finish your shower, what little had a chance to penetrate (if any), and it dries out in the hours before it gets used again, even if you have 3-4 people taking a shower a day in there. So, how long must the thing hold 3" of water to work when it is bare before installation? The only time it will see 3" of water again is if the entire house is submerged, then you have much bigger problems.

That is the reasoning why the industry tests, and John's tests do not match up. If you really wanted a bathtub, it would take all of about two minutes to reseal all of the seams, but it is a waste of time and material and money...do it if you want if it makes you feel better.

With that reasoning, a liquid that's full of pinholes on the walls would be fine also. But that's typically frowned upon, or considered an example of poor workmanship.

The seams on those niches are not sealed to the same standard that the face of the board is. That's the bottom line, no excuses. The consequences are the only thing debateable.

As an amateur, if I were to purchase one of those, I would expect it to hold water on its own, as its a vulnerable element in the water containment system. I don't have standing water in my niches, but they get blasted by the body spray jets when they're on. Knowing that would be the case while I was building, I took EXTRA care to make sure my niches were sealed to the best of my ability. A leaky corner isn't acceptable with a liquid, so why would this be any different?
 
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Jadnashua

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The niche doesn't leak immediately, and only would leak with standing water in it. How do you get standing water on the surface once installed and covered with thinset and tile and then grouted?

Keep in mind, cbu is not waterproof, but it is not damaged by water. Millions of showers are built using just cbu with a vapor barrier behind it and they work. WHy, because on the walls, you just don't get big quantities of liquid water standing there since 99.9% runs off, and any that may penetrate can easily evaporate in between uses.

It is a very different thing on a shower pan since gravity makes it the receiver of any moisture that may penetrate that doesn't evaporate. FWIW, the foam in the niche doesn't degrade or support mold or fail. And, it took many hours of standing water in there before anything leaked through. Just like thinset on a Kerdi seam keeps the moisture out, it augments what's already there to produce a viable joint once you've installed it.

If it really bothers you, a couple of minutes and you can make the thing become a fish bowl and hold water forever, but it's not needed.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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..... A leaky corner isn't acceptable with a liquid, so why would this be any different?

Good question? Why they use a hot glue type glue also is a little odd. Those outside mitres only need a nick and they can let in water to the paper layer that is the strenghing agent for the foam niche.

Don't even get me started on the lack of slope for the niche bottoms.

Some company's should stick to what they do well. Ardex should not make glue for Ditra. That's just not right. Maybe the other boys will give the AF207 a test drive.
 
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ShowerDude

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im thinking the chippewa indians made waterpoof canoes and clothes before germany invented the failing foam niche
 

JohnfrWhipple

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im thinking the chippewa indians made waterpoof canoes and clothes before germany invented the failing foam niche

The trick was to crack a 1/4 of a cedar tree. Drive in wedges and fall the shell of the canoe. Then leave it a year to dry somewhat. In the end non-modified rocks where heated to help steam the final shape. Amazing they could do that without a Lab Report or printed instructions.

At some point way back when, one of our First Nations People had to say. "Hey, why not spear that huge whale and go for a ride?"
 
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Eurob

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Hey John , how would you know if it is waterproofed if you don't pour water in and let it sit ? :D
 

Jadnashua

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Hey John , how would you know if it is waterproofed if you don't pour water in and let it sit ? :D
The question I have, is how long will there be 3" of liquid water sitting in your niche once it is installed and tiled? Never. How long does it need to hold water in your severe test? How long is a shower used in a day? Millions of shower walls are made with cbu, which we know isn't waterproof and wicks water, and how many of them create problems? Maybe a little rational thinking here would help. A shower pan is one thing, a niche on the wall is another.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Hey John , how would you know if it is waterproofed if you don't pour water in and let it sit ? :D

I know right.

I thought the same. I filled it with water. It leaked. I tried another one (new niche) it did not. I bought a third niche and tried again - it leaked.

In my private tests 1 in 3 niches is in fact waterproof. Thats pretty good right.

Like batting 333.

When I build my showers I prefer better batting averages.

These foam niches are made I'm told mechanically. Some kind of robot no doubt with a glue gun.....
 
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