Appreciate advice in replacing 31yr old water softener that's finally starting to go

[atrus5]

I've been reading through all the informative posts and I'm coming to the conclusion that you guys might just better understand what I need better than the 2 companies I've had out to provide an estimate. I'd really appreciate any advice you can provide.

I built my house in 1995 and had a water softener installed at that time. It's required very little maintenance but I'm having trouble with rust staining even though I have reduced the on-demand water setting a few times over the years. It's burning through more salt and I'm still getting a little staining. Not a lot, but my last bathroom renovation (over a year ago) is showing some rust in the grout of the shower despite my best efforts. (Reading through the forum it appears I've been very lucky with the life and performance of my softener.)

House:
- 2 1/2 baths, 4 bedrooms
- 2 people in house now. Was 4 when system was installed. (2 Children have their own houses now)

Here's the system I have now: (I have all the original paperwork)
- Fleck 2500 Econominder on a 10"x40" bed.
- Resin is "a blend of ion exchange resins and carbonous mineral beds". I know carbon is typically for taste but I'm pretty sure they thought it would help with iron when my system was put together (pre-filter??). It as a sticker on the front of it that says "Equipped With INTERCEPT Rust Elimination System" - catchy, eh?
- 18"x33" round brine tank.
- Turbolator
- Programmed for 18min in "Brine and Rinse" section starting at time 0 (programmed via pins)
- Programmed for 10min in "Rapid Rinse & Brine Tank Refill Section starting at time 70 (programmed via pins)
- I don't know how to tell what the flow rate is to the brine tank. It looks like a .25inch tube with a adjustment t-handle on it (like you'd see on a small saddle valve)
- 3/4" copper water lines
- 1995 water test @ 1ppm iron and 21ppm Calcium
- Have always used Duracube salt and layered Iron Out between bags as loading. Great stuff. No bridging, no debris in tank after all these years.
_ If my notes are correct I consistently went through about 500# Salt/year with 4 in the house, then 350# for the 2 of us, now more.

2026:
- Company A:
_ Testing... Well water @ 0ppm iron (said less than 1ppm), 30ppm hardness. Softened water @ 5ppm hardness, didn't say about iron.
_ Proposal... Fleck 2510 Control Valve on a 10x47 resin tank with 10% crosslink resin, 18x40 round tank

- Company B:
_ Testing... Well water @ 0.75ppm iron, 19ppm hardness. Softened water @ .25ppm iron, didn't say about hardness.
_ Proposal... "Autotrol-like" Control Head from someone in the U.P. (Michigan), 64k resin bed, 18x36 round tank

I'm quite capable with plumbing and technology and have been leaning toward installing my own after hearing Company A's pricing. I told Company B I just wanted a price on a 48k unit but they insisted on coming out first. I really didn't want to waste their time but I buy my salt there so thought I owed them the opportunity. Their price was much more reasonable but I think their system is oversized and I'm concerned about the "Autotrol" parts availability and reliability. Also didn't like that I was quoted a system BEFORE testing my well water - only my tap was tested until I asked them to test the well water.

The WaterSoftenerPart.com home office is within an hour's drive and they have a reasonable price on a 48k Clack unit cash and carry.

If I could still buy my current system or rebuild it I would, but I'm thinking it's too old and likely to be a handful to take apart in one piece. Also the dual media has me very concerned about replacement.

I would really appreciate your expert thoughts on what you would do if you were in my situation.

Also I see citric acid and Res Care being recommended a lot. Based on my system's life I think the Iron Out worked for me but occasionally I've have to "shock" the resin bed and it does smell up the house water for a while afterward. Should I switch from Iron Out?

 

[Reach4]

If you get an Autotrol, know the input/output are reversed from Fleck. Clack is the same order as Fleck.

Iron Out is good. Menards? Citric acid smells better, but you don't smell it in the water-- only when pouring it.

You could consider an extra IO cleaning. About 1 cup into a bucket of warm water. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/need-help-with-water-system.111634/#post-786530 is a good procedure description.

Do you also have H2S smell? A backwashing iron filter could deal with both iron and H2S.

I don't know about the mixed media. Carbon usually calls for a higher backwash rate than carbon.

Fleck 2500 Econominder on a 10"x40" bed.

I presume at 10x54 tank.

_ Testing... Well water @ 0.75ppm iron, 19ppm hardness.

Less than 1 ppm is still a lot of iron. 0.3 is about where people find it a problem

 

[Sponsor]

 

[atrus5]

Thanks Reach4.

Looks like I'm doing my Iron Out "shock" treatment wrong all these years. It does improve performance but perhaps not all it could. I have always just dumped extra in the brine tank tube and forced a full regen. No soak time in resin like the method you linked. The wife hates it because our water/house smells like sulphur(?) for DAYS afterward. I just did 2 back-to-back treatments (my method) a week before the last water test. I'll see if she can bare another but use your suggested technique.

My normal layering in of Iron Out between bags never creates a smell. Just the shock treatment does.

I have always used old school "Iron Out Rust Stain Remover". Yep, Menards since they've been in the area. Bought it at Meijer before that.

I see that Menards now carries other "Out" products specific to water softeners. Never noticed them before.
- "OUT Filter Mate® Water Softener Cleaner and Salt Booster"
- "OUT Filter Mate® Liquid Water Softener Cleaner"
- "OUT Filter-Mate Potassium Permanganate".

I read in forum that citric acid and ResCare perform differently than Iron Out. I'm assuming these new products act more like those.?. Maybe I can try the shock treatment with a different product to avoid the smell? Although I suspect following the procedure will avoid the smell since nobody else mentions it happening.

Any thoughts on these products? Which would you use for shock or normal application?

The writeup for my softener says 10x40 and I've measured it. It's 40.5" from floor to the bottom sheet metal of the control head. It is old and likely they don't make them that small anymore.

No smell from water ever other than a few days following shock. I think my only problem is the slow iron staining

I realize that a water softener isn't designed to target Iron issues but I've been told a standard Softener can remove up to 2ppm Iron but that the resin needs flushing to prevent fouling. Do you think an iron filter is needed?

What if my "Rust Elimination System" was more than hype? It's worked well for 30 years. Will switching to a "normal" system set me back? My system looks like a standard softener so there would have to be some magic inside the resin tank... turbulator? Carbon bed? I don't know. I am skeptical.

I keep reading that resin doesn't last this long but mine is removing 2/3 of the iron (.75 to .25 ppm) and 3/4 of the hardness (20 to 5 ppm) so it's not dead. But as you said the .25 ppm Iron getting through is causing staining.

My gut says it's time to replace but I think you are suggesting it MIGHT just need a good cleaning. Please confirm if that is your thought.

Not challenging anything you have stated. You appear to be one of guys on the forum that know your stuff!

Thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

https://summitbrands.com/about/sds-certificates-of-conformity/ tells you what they are.

- "OUT Filter Mate® Water Softener Cleaner and Salt Booster"
Citric acid.
- "OUT Filter Mate® Liquid Water Softener Cleaner"
mainly Phosphoric acid
- "OUT Filter-Mate Potassium Permanganate".
Potassium Permanganate is not normally used in softeners but with some backwashing iron filters.

Phosphoric acid also smells good. Both citric acid and phosphoric acid are used in some beverages. https://www.echemi.com/cms/1079130.html Orange juice is a classic beverage with citric acid... think citrus.

 

[Bannerman]

A 10" X 40" tank will be typically appropriate for 1.25 cubic feet (ft3) resin along with 10 lbs gravel underbedding, but with a Turbulaor installed, no gravel underbedding will be normally installed.

Although some water softener techs' often recommend adding carbon into a softener's media tank, that is not a good practice as the amount of carbon is usually so little to provide much if any benefit, and as Reach4 mentioned, carbon media has a much different backwash requirement than softening resin. In addition, carbon has a much shorter useable lifespan compared to a quality softening resin, so unless the carbon is kept separated from the resin, it will be virtually impossible to replace the carbon media without also replacing the resin, even as the resin may continue to remain fully functional for many additional years.

As it seems no media replacement has been performed in 31 years, I anticipate whatever carbon had been installed intially, has likely become fractured and pulverized into small pieces which had been eliminated to drain during the backwash cycles occuring within the initial few years of service.

While water testing labs usually report water hardness as ppm, almost all qualified water treatment professionals will use a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit to perform on-site hardness testing. The Hach 5B reports hardness as grains per gallon (gpg), not ppm. When posters on this forum state hardness as ppm, they often have utilized an electronic TDS meter, expecting TDS is equal to hardness, which it is not. What method was utilized to measure your well water hardness?

FYI, 1 gpg hardness is equal to 17.1 ppm hardness, so if your hardness level is truly 30 ppm, that will be only 1.75 gpg which is well below a hardness level that most people would be concerned with or even consider utilizing a softener to remove.

The iron within well water is usually in a ferrous state which means, the iron is fully dissolved in the water and the water will be usually clear until exposure to oxygen or another oxidant causes the ferrous iron to become oxydized to a ferric state whereby the iron will precipitate out from the water as brown/orange rust. Although a softener is capable of removing some ferrous iron, using a softener for iron removal is never efficient since removing 1 ppm of iron will consume the equivalent capacity and salt needed to remove 85 ppm hardness. While a dedicated iron reduction system will operate more efficiently, when the iron amount is low such as 1ppm or less , a softener will be often utilized as a tradeoff to eliminate the additional expense for a dedicated iron reduction system.

 

[Bannerman]

- Programmed for 18min in "Brine and Rinse" section starting at time 0 (programmed via pins)

An 18 minute Brine and Rinse cycle is unusually short. The B&R setting for a residential softener is typically 60-minutes, with the full approprate quantity of brine becoming transferred from the brine tank to the resin tank within the initial ~15-minutes, allowing the remaining ~45-minutes of slow rinse flow to continue to push the brine through the resin bed, and causing the released hardness minerals, iron, chloride and excess sodium to be eliminated to drain. Rapid Rinse then follows to recompact the resin bed prior to soft water flow to fixtures being restored.

When the Slow Rinse time is insufficient, the soft water supplied initially following each regen cycle will usually contain excessive sodium and the other elements that were not fully eliminated to drain. In addition, some amount of Iron Out or other acidic cleaner is more likely to remain present and detected at faucets.

I consistently went through about 500# Salt/year with 4 in the house, then 350# for the 2 of us, now more.

Although your demand meter initiated Econominder controller will continue to operate more efficiently than a Time Clock initiated controller, modern digital controllers allow additional programmability which may result in reduced water consumption and salt efficiency benefits.

 

[atrus5]

Hi Bannerman. Thanks for the added information and the correction.

While water testing labs usually report water hardness as ppm, almost all qualified water treatment professionals will use a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit to perform on-site hardness testing. The Hach 5B reports hardness as grains per gallon (gpg), not ppm. When posters on this forum state hardness as ppm, they often have utilized an electronic TDS meter, expecting TDS is equal to hardness, which it is not. What method was utilized to measure your well water hardness?

I reported my hardness incorrectly. Thanks for the catch! All of my hardness levels are G.P.G and not PPM as I stated. I did not notice this on my original purchase paperwork and I did hear "grains" and PPM in my conversations but didn't realize I was crossing the 2. So my hardness is ~20GPG and my iron is ~.75ppm.

Company A added drops of solution while counting until a color change was observed (to bluish). I think he added a different drop first, however, that made it red. He counted 30 drops for well water and 5 for tap water. For iron, something was added to a a vial of my water and the result was compared to several others after it sat briefly. The vial was almost perfectly clear and much clearer than the lowest (1ppm) vial. He recorded 0ppm iron but told me I had some.

Company B I did not watch since he did it in the 1/2 bath while another employee was talking to me. But it seemed he did it too fast to be counting drops and didn't have any convenient worksurface (clam-like pedestal sink). He reported .75ppm iron and 21GPG hardness.

a softener will be often utilized as a tradeoff to eliminate the additional expense for a dedicated iron reduction system.

Considering my revised (higher) hardness level and <1ppm iron level my original system makes sense.

An 18 minute Brine and Rinse cycle is unusually short.

Wish I knew that many years ago. I double checked the manual and it says 2min/pin and I have 9 pins in the B&R. It also indicates about 18minutes on the label. I have attached a photo of the pins and the page of the manual.

However, I wonder if there is something "different" about this old system since the "Pin Storage" has a place for 11 pins and mine contains 7 unused pins right now. I might be stretching my assumptions but if I add the 5 + 4 pins in the manual's example program wheel plus 11 in the pin storage that's 20 total pins which matches what are in my system right now. It would take 30 pins to get 60min.

In addition, some amount of Iron Out or other acidic cleaner is more likely to remain present and detected at faucets.

Awesome. That explains the smell when I "shock" it. I'm surprised we don't notice it under normal use with the Iron Out I have always layered in.

 

[atrus5]

After considering everything I've been told thus far I'm thinking it is best to just replace my system. Flushing it MIGHT give it a little life but probably not much. Considering my age and how long I expect to be in this house (not trying to be morbid) I'm thinking I might as well get the most use out of a new system rather than delaying and leaving it for the next guy. I also want to do it myself and do it while I still can. I hope that makes sense.

So with everything that is known (and corrected) for my needs what should I get and how much should I have it regenerate?

I keep coming back to the local cash and carry Clack control head on a 48k bed with 10% crosslink. But I don't mind paying more if a bigger system would get me more life. I haven't had an iron filter and honestly I don't have the room to place one - There is literally only room for a resin bed and brine tank and the tank has to be round to fit it is so tight. It seems that the finer resin (for iron) really isn't needed and will only shorten the system life in my case. I think I'll add a ResCare drip unless you guys think my layering with the salt is better.

My understanding is that if I buy an "oversized" system I could likely just set the salt usage to only regenerate enough of it to match my needs plus a little fudge. Tradeoff to avoid excessive salt usage. Does that oversized system actually add life overall? I'm not clear if the extra resin would just foul out and become unusable or actually become useful as the "smaller" regenerated resin became fouled.

I really appreciate your time and thoughtfulness in responses!

 

[atrus5]

System glitched and repeated my response - please ignore.

 

[atrus5]

System glitched and repeated my response - please ignore.

 

[Bannerman]

I double checked the manual and it says 2min/pin and I have 9 pins in the B&R.

Your diagram sheet specifies the initial PINS (you have 9-pins inserted from 0 onward), control the length of the Backwash cycle. Your BW cycle is currently programmed for 18-minutes but a 10-minute Backwash (5-pins) is more common and usually sufficient unless there is excessive sediment or other visible debris that is entering from the well, which is not being fully rinsed away within a 10-minute BW cycle.

The instruction sheet then specifies the number of HOLES control the length of the Brine & Rinse cycle @ 2-minutes per hole. Your Program Wheel photo does not show the top of the dial, but from what I can see, it appears the B&R setting begins at 18-minutes (1st hole), and ends at 70-minutes (68-minutes = last hole), thereby making the B&R cycle 50-52-minutes duration.

Perhaps 50-52-minutes B&R has been sufficient if the brine was being fully transferred from the brine tank to the media tank in 13-minutes or less, but that will be conditional on the Salt setting and Gallons Capacity that is programmed in relation to the 'compensated' hardness level.

The 5-PINS you have inserted from 70 to 80-minutes, result in a 10-minute Rapid Rinse cycle if the controller is equipped with a 'Black' drive cam on the front (prt #17 on diagram on page 8 of the 2500 Econominder Manual). When equipped with a Black drive cam, there would need to be some number of HOLES after the pin at 80-minutes so as to program the Brine Fill duration @ 2-minutes per hole, followed by 2 PINS to end Brine Fill and also to signify the conclusion of the regeneration cycle.

If the drive cam is 'White', then the 5-PINS between 70-80 minutes, will result in both the Rapid Rinse and Brine Fill duration to be 10-minutes. The last 2-pins (@78 & 80 minutes) will signify the end of RR & BF, and also the conclusion of the regeneration cycle.
Depending on the gallons capacity programmed on the front program wheel, and also the brine tank refill flow rate (usually specified on a label located on the flow control fitting (prt #s 20 & 21 on diagram on page 15 of Manual)), will determine if a 10-minute Brine Refill was appropriate, or if alternate programming would have provided significantly higher efficiency and lower salt consumption.

Company A added drops of solution while counting until a color change was observed (to bluish).

From this description, I anticipate the Tech had utilized a Hach 5-B to accurately establish your raw water hardness is 30 gpg. If your softener was working as it shoud be, then the hardness measured from the soft water faucet would have measured 0 gpg, not 5 gpg.

A quality iron test kit such as a Hach IR-18B, is capable of indicating from 0.2 to 7.0 ppm, so I expected the amount of iron would have been more accurately specified.

 

[atrus5]

Thank you for clarifying how my current system is programmed.

What kind of new system is needed to match it's performance?

 

[Bannerman]

In addition to 30 gpg actual hardness, to compensate for the capacity consumed to remove 0.75 ppm iron, a further 3.75 gpg (0.75 X 5 gpg) will need to be added. Also, since a single tank softener will be regenerated using hard water and iron, the hardness setting will need to be further increased by 20%, arriving at a total compensated hardness setting of 41 gpg.

For the best balance of efficiency, useable capacity and soft water quality, the usual recommendation will be to regenerate using 8 lbs salt per cubic foot of resin. For a softener equipped with 1.5 ft3 resin (48K grains total capacity), 8 lbs//ft3 equals 12 lbs total salt, which will regenerate 36K grains of useable capacity each cycle. Hardness Reduction Efficiency (= salt efficiency) is then calculated to be (36,000 gr / 12 lbs).= 3,000 grains per lb.

Using an estimated soft water usage of 60 gallons/per person/day, then the estimated daily softening load will equal 41 gpg X 120 gallons = 4,920 grains per day.

36K grains / 4920 = 7.3 days capacity - 1-day reserve allowance = 6-7 day estimated regeneration frequency.

A softener equipped with 2.0 ft3 resin (64,000 gr total capacity) programmed to use the same 8 lbs/ft3 salt (16 lbs total to regenerate 48K gr useable capacity) would extend the estimated regeneration frequency to 8-9 days. Because your water contains 0.75 ppm iron which is not being removed prior to entering the softener, then it would be best if the softener is regenerated more frequently to reduce the amount of iron accumulation between cycles. Suggest using a softener no larger than 1.5 ft3 unless all of the iron is removed prior to the softener.

 

[atrus5]

Thank you very much Bannerman! Excellent writeup. Very much appreciated.

(Sorry for the delay in responding. I needed to watch Grandchildren a few days and that kept me away from technology.)

 

[atrus5]

I've bought a new system and ready to install it.

When I removed the supply line insulation it revealed a check valve before the softener. Photos attached.

The new softener is taller so this valve will need to be moved higher up the copper supply line but I'm wondering if it's no longer needed with the newer system (Clack WS1). I've got room to move it but I'm getting mixed signals online for if it is a good or bad thing to have.

Appreciate any thoughts on this.

 

[Reach4]

The new softener is taller so this valve will need to be moved higher up the copper supply line but I'm wondering if it's no longer needed with the newer system (Clack WS1). I've got room to move it but I'm getting mixed signals online for if it is a good or bad thing to have.

I think it was unneeded before, but the new valve probably counts turbine pulses whichever way the water flowed.

If you have a check valve, it is important to have a working thermal expansion tank for the water heater. Many of us don't have a thermal expansion tank, and rely on the big pressure tank to absorb any thermal expansion. The downside of that is the softener can measure "phantom flow". I figure it is small enough to let it happen.

So if no thermal expansion tank, use no check valve. To prevent measuring "phantom flow" have a thermal expansion tank and a check valve.

 

[atrus5]

Thought I'd add that this appears to be for the softener and nothing else I'm guessing because it is installed after the 3 valve copper "bypass" plumbed at the ceiling.

After a little research it almost seems like it's a potential problem since the water heater does not have access to the well expansion tank if the water expands too much when heated. Although I havent noted any problems in 31 years...

It's in the way so I think I'll remove it unless you guys feel differently.

The plumber that did the house has left me a few mistakes as discovered in a bathroom remodel so I can't assume everything he did is correct unfortunately. (Discussed in a different thread in this forum.)

 

[atrus5]

I think it was unneeded before, but the new valve probably counts turbine pulses whichever way the water flowed.

If you have a check valve, it is important to have a working thermal expansion tank for the water heater. Many of us don't have a thermal expansion tank, and rely on the big pressure tank to absorb any thermal expansion. The downside of that is the softener can measure "phantom flow". I figure it is small enough to let it happen.

So if no thermal expansion tank, use no check valve. To prevent measuring "phantom flow" have a thermal expansion tank and a check valve.

Thanks Reach4!

I was typing my last note before your reply came in so I'm sorry for the partial redundancy. Your explanation is much more thorough and proper. It does confirm my concern.

I'm removing the check valve.

 

[Bannerman]

Perhaps, prior water treatment methods included an AIO (air injection oxidation) filtration system?

AIO utilizes a bubble of air within the media tank as the primary treatment method, before further treatment takes place within the filtration media directly below. A check valve is always needed just before an AIO filter's inlet connection, to prevent much of the air at the top of the tank, from expanding backward into the supply line toward the pressure tank while the system pressure is being decreased 20 psi, down to the pressure switch cut-in pressure.

 

[atrus5]

Interesting consideration.

I am the original home owner and the water softener described above is all there ever was. It only had the Fleck 2500 on it. Nothing additional.