Anyone using dual sump pumps?

[Sign Man]

I have a basement which gets water in it during the wet season. There is also a floor drain connected to a field tile which backs up when it rains excessively. The problem here is when the floor drain backs up, the sump pump either runs nearly constantly or simply cannot keep up. The most extreme case was a few years ago when the water rose to a depth of 18", endangering the furnace & everything else, not good. The highest flow in which the pump runs constantly usually only lasts 8-10 hours. My pump is a 1.25" submersible. I have on hand a 1.25" pedestal pump which I was thinking of placing in the sump & setting the float to start only after the main pump can no longer keep up. Obviously I need check valves on both pumps, & would need to "Y" the pipes together into a larger, maybe 2" outlet pipe.
Question is, would pumping two pumps into the same pipe make them fight each other, affecting the flow or should I plan on just investing money into a larger submersible pump? Pipe is much cheaper than pumps, which is why I'd rather go this way.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

seperate the pumps

you probably should make the back up pump on a
seperate pipe going out the side of the home.

that way they dont fight with each other in an emergency.....

perhaps a larger 2 inch disharge just for fun...

that would work best....

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Southern Man]

I think you should disconnect the field tile and prevent it from backing up into your basement in the first place.

You should also have two independent systems, one that collects from the perimeter footing drains and should see very little water. A floor drain should be completely independent and if you can’t flow by gravity during heavy rains and outside flooding then use a second pump to get rid of the water that way.

 

[Sign Man]

Disconnecting the tile is not an option for a couple of reasons. It helps get rid of the incoming water that won't flow to the sump pump during lighter flow periods, and secondly, I tried using an inflatable rubber plug once and while it stopped the water from coming up the drain, is soon filled up the ground & started cascading through the masonry joints. We had an engineer tell us under no circumstances should we plug or disconnect it because the resulting hydraulic pressure would eventually cause the wall & floor to fail. At least this way, the water has somewhere to go & not build pressure, I just need to continue getting rid of it.
This is a hundred year old farm house with a hand dug basement & brick walls. No perimeter drains that I'm aware of.

 

[Southern Man]

It sounds like you do have perimeter drains that are connected to the sump. If that's the case then the engineer is right- plug the system and your slab will become buoyant.

Obviously there is something that I am not understanding (and I solve wet basement issues quite often). Perhaps if you make a simple sketch of the system you could help me understand the situation better.

 

[Sign Man]

It sounds like you do have perimeter drains that are connected to the sump. If that's the case then the engineer is right- plug the system and your slab will become buoyant.

Obviously there is something that I am not understanding (and I solve wet basement issues quite often). Perhaps if you make a simple sketch of the system you could help me understand the situation better.

It's pretty basic, the sump pit is in a low area. There are no drains connected to it, it simply collects water that seeps through the floor & masonry joints in various places. The floor drain to the field tile is in an adjacent room, but there is a scupper at the base of the wall allowing water to pass through. I assume this was intended to be the original means of draining the basement, the sump was added some time later. What happens now is when water comes in, the sump collects most of the water in that room, the drain collects it in the other. When the rain is excessive & the ground becomes saturated, the drain backs up, & the water goes through the scupper into the sump. This is when the pump has to pull double duty, thus the desire for a backup pump in the pit.

 

[Southern Man]

My question has nothing to do with the sump then- strictly the floor drain. This apparently is set up to drain by gravity, which it does not do during saturated soil conditions. I am therefore assuming that it drains to what you are calling a “field drainâ€, which to me means “dry sumpâ€, or “French drainâ€, which is basically a length of perforated pipe in washed stone, buried in the ground.

The problem with a dry sump is that when it fills with groundwater, the flow reverses into your basement. That’s why I recommend abandoning that (plugging the pipe) and using a pump to get rid of the water on the surface of the ground.

But then you said that you plugged the pipe and water started coming in through the walls. This leads me to believe that there is a connection between the floor drain and a perimeter footing drain.

In a location where you can’t drain the footing by gravity to open ground (daylight) then the normal approach is to lead the footing drains to a sump in the basement, which is then pumped out onto the surface of the ground.

I’ve seen people screw up big time by piping downspout leaders to these systems. Maybe someone screwed up and attached a floor drain to yours.

 

[Sign Man]

But then you said that you plugged the pipe and water started coming in through the walls. This leads me to believe that there is a connection between the floor drain and a perimeter footing drain.

In a location where you can’t drain the footing by gravity to open ground (daylight) then the normal approach is to lead the footing drains to a sump in the basement, which is then pumped out onto the surface of the ground.

I’ve seen people screw up big time by piping downspout leaders to these systems. Maybe someone screwed up and attached a floor drain to yours.

It's possible I suppose, as I mentioned, the house is 100 years old, I don't know how advanced the drainage methods where back then, fairly primative I'd guess.

 

[Southern Man]

It's possible I suppose, as I mentioned, the house is 100 years old, I don't know how advanced the drainage methods where back then, fairly primative I'd guess.

Foundation drains have been used for a long time. I think what you're going to have to do is do some exploratory digging and figure out what pipes go where.

Some advice I give my clients:

1. Clean gutters, downspouts to separate leaders, discharge to "daylight" at least ten feet away from the building.
2. Perimeter footing drain separate from everything else, drain to daylight, or sump and pump.
3. Perimeter grades away from house 6" in ten feet, swales around the house 1/8" per foot or more, no standing water after a rain.
4. Bushes low and trimmed, no large trees within their leaf dripline near the house.

 

[Sign Man]

Foundation drains have been used for a long time. I think what you're going to have to do is do some exploratory digging and figure out what pipes go where.

Some advice I give my clients:

1. Clean gutters, downspouts to separate leaders, discharge to "daylight" at least ten feet away from the building.
2. Perimeter footing drain separate from everything else, drain to daylight, or sump and pump.
3. Perimeter grades away from house 6" in ten feet, swales around the house 1/8" per foot or more, no standing water after a rain.
4. Bushes low and trimmed, no large trees within their leaf dripline near the house.

I had given serious thought to having the house lifted up & a new poured concrete basement & walls put under it, till I found out it would cost more than my mortgage did.
Anyway, as far as the floor drain tile goes, my Father told me (we bought the place from my folks) that it was a far worse problem of water backing up in the drain years ago, until the farmer who has the property around us tiled his field. Now it only happens in the most extreme cases of heavy rain, when the farm field tiles have reached their max.
Anyway, as for my original topic, I've decided to add the second pump & run a seperate discharge out the wall from it & not mix the two. Thanks for your input. There may indeed come a time whan I have to excavate one of the walls in one area to do some masonry repairs to get rid of a slight bulge in it.

 

[dumberplumber]

Dual Sump Pumps

I think the approach you are taking is the practical one considering the extent of the problems and the economics for a "Mike Holmes" solution. My suggestions are that you wire the two pumps on independent fuses/breakers in the event that one pump fails and causes the fuse/breaker to go off, and to have the output from the second pump go through an above ground pipe which will not be affected by a saturated soil situation.

 

[Sign Man]

Good suggestion regarding the independant circuits. The present sump pump already discharges into an above ground pipe, which carries the water about 20 feet away from the house, I'll do the same with the backup. I also have an automatic standby generator which the current pump is wired to, via the transfer switch. Unfortunately I'm out of available circuits on that, so the backup pump wouldn't be covered.

 

[Sign Man]

I got the second pump installed this week in the nick of time. Today we got 4 inches of rain in short order, the highest flow into the basement I can remember. The main pump started running constantly, & the second pump started running about every minute or so. It never got to the point where the second pump couldn't keep up & now we're down to the main pump cycling about every minute by itself. I'm a happy camper, thanks for all your input.

 

[Jar546]

I have inspected home with 3 sump pumps and probably needed a fourth in the last corner left in the basement. There was no way to drain to daylight on this flat lot and it probably should not have had a basement installed at all.

Unless you are on a flat lot, a sump pump is an afterthought and quicker, cheaper bandaid than the real fix of stopping the water from coming in at all.

Your situation is not uncommon. Get a 2nd pump.

 

[Southern Man]

As long as you don't have a high groundwater situation, I see nothing wrong with constructing a basement on a flat lot. If the walls are damp-proofed, the roof has gutters, the downspouts are led away from the house, and the lot is graded at least 6" in ten feet away from the building then the basement should be dry. A perimeter footing drain can be directed into a basement sump pump to easily remove any water that gets into the system.