Anyone build a pressure tank/pump house for -20 F?

[Qwertyjjj]

I'm thinking of building a pump house outside but in winter it often gets to -22 or lower for a week and is definitely below 32 almost all winter.
I've seen some people use stryofoam and a light bulb or 2 inside.
Would this work for those kind of temperatures?
Electricity could very occasionally go off for up to 4 hrs maybe once per winter if there is an ice storm or something similar, I'm presuming a 19 gallon tank wouldn't freeze up in that time but the pipes might.

 

[Valveman]

I like those little free standing oil heaters. They have a thermostat so they only run when needed, and they don't get hot enough to burn the well house down like a light bulb does. But anytime you count on electric heat, freezing is a problem when the power goes off.

A pitless adapter with all the pipes below the frost level is the best way to go.

I don't know if they are still in business, but Hot Box use to make insulated boxes to put over a well.

 

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[Qwertyjjj]

A pitless only helps with the well connection to the pipes though? The pipes have to come above ground to go into the pressure tank unless the pressure tank is also house below the ground somewhere but I don't have the equipment to dig 6ft below under the frost line and even then, it would need an access point exposed to the air a little.
Also, I would have to drill a one inch hole in the concrete grade to get the inlet connected - would this have to be protected?
The current 1 inch from the well goes into the house under the ground. But if I put a pump house outside, I have to take this pipe and route it back outside. The take a 1/2" pipe and route that back inside to connect to the house copper pipes.
I could of course take the pipe from the well and cut it just before it enters the house then connect to the pressure tank outside but that's a lot of digging too.

 

[Valveman]

If you use a pitless and all the pipes are below frost level, you can put the pressure tank and pressure switch in the house. Or with the use of a CSV you can use an In Well Tank and also put the pressure switch in the well casing.

 

[Qwertyjjj]

The current pressure tank and switch are in the house and all pipes below frost level. I want to move the tank outside if possible as it has too much condensation and takes up a lot of space in the room it's in and there is nowhere else it can go in a heated space at present.

 

[Valveman]

The current pressure tank and switch are in the house and all pipes below frost level. I want to move the tank outside if possible as it has too much condensation and takes up a lot of space in the room it's in and there is nowhere else it can go in a heated space at present.

Well then that is easy to fix. Big pressure tanks are an outdated way to control a pump system anyway. Switch to a constant pressure system as with a Cycle Stop Valve and all you need a is 4.5 gallon size pressure tank that won't take up much space or cause much condensation.

 

[Reach4]

I've seen some people use stryofoam and a light bulb or 2 inside.

I suggest searching this site (not just this forum) for polyiso

You will see discussions of using that as an insulator in various ways. It will be better than styrofoam.

 

[Qwertyjjj]

Well then that is easy to fix. Big pressure tanks are an outdated way to control a pump system anyway. Switch to a constant pressure system as with a Cycle Stop Valve and all you need a is 4.5 gallon size pressure tank that won't take up much space or cause much condensation.

I would but the CSV costs the same as the tank I already bought
+ I don't think I can return it now anyway.

 

[Boycedrilling]

Yes hot box is still in business making insulated and heated enclosures. I drilled a well a year ago for an elementary school. The well is about 400 ft from the mechanical building. The well is in the playground. 8" well about 900 ft deep. 20 hp grundfos sub pump. Baker pitless unit. Hotbox over the pitless unit for environmental protection. 4'x4'x6' high chain link fencing to keep the kids out.

Engineer designed mechanical building. 10'x16' concrete block construction. Four 80 gallon pressure tanks. Yaskawa VFD controlling pump. Heat source is a 500 watt baseboard heater with thermostat. Incoming water is at 72 degrees. No problem with room temps at zero degrees.

 

[Valveman]

I would but the CSV costs the same as the tank I already bought

Except that the CSV and small tank would not take up as much space, would not cause condensation, and would keep the pump from cycling no matter how much or how little water you are using. You will spend more than that on a Hot Box, heater, and labor to install.

+ I don't think I can return it now anyway.

I don't see why not. I would not buy from someone that doesn't have a return policy anyway.

 

[Valveman]

Yes hot box is still in business making insulated and heated enclosures. I drilled a well a year ago for an elementary school. The well is about 400 ft from the mechanical building. The well is in the playground. 8" well about 900 ft deep. 20 hp grundfos sub pump. Baker pitless unit. Hotbox over the pitless unit for environmental protection. 4'x4'x6' high chain link fencing to keep the kids out.

Engineer designed mechanical building. 10'x16' concrete block construction. Four 80 gallon pressure tanks. Yaskawa VFD controlling pump. Heat source is a 500 watt baseboard heater with thermostat. Incoming water is at 72 degrees. No problem with room temps at zero degrees.

I have done several schools in my area the same way, except that I used a CSV instead of a VFD. I also only used two tanks because I had a 20 PSI differential, which gives the same draw down as 4 tanks with the 10 PSI differential normally used with a VFD.

 

[Boycedrilling]

The mechanical building wasn't my design. I do set VFD's up with a 20 psi differential though. I program them to start at -15 psi from set point and then to boost pressure 5 psi before going to sleep

 

[Valveman]

The mechanical building wasn't my design. I do set VFD's up with a 20 psi differential though. I program them to start at -15 psi from set point and then to boost pressure 5 psi before going to sleep

I remember the class I gave in Vegas where I explained that a VFD held a single set point and did not have a pressure bandwidth, and therefore was not able utilize any draw down from a pressure tank. There where a lot of VFD engineers in that class and that is where "sleep mode" for VFD's got started. It is a good example of how engineers are trying to solve some of the problems of VFD's by mimicking the functions of a CSV. Sleep mode was an improvement that was needed for VFD's. There is also a way they can solve the problems of harmonics, voltage spikes, resonance frequency vibration, and bearing currents that are all common to VFD's. The answer to those problems is called a CSV.

 

[Boycedrilling]

CSV'Ss are accepted by the Washington Dept of Health for public water supply systems. They are included in the design manual.

I replaced a 1994 date code control box on a 3 hp domestic well with a CSV, yesterday . The only reason I replaced the control box was because it was a standard box with no contractor and he was burning up the points in the pressure switch. Installed a control box with a contractor so it's only a pilot circuit on the pressure switch. Tried to get him to let me install a cycle sensor also, but he didn't go for that in addition.

 

[Qwertyjjj]

Except that the CSV and small tank would not take up as much space, would not cause condensation, and would keep the pump from cycling no matter how much or how little water you are using. You will spend more than that on a Hot Box, heater, and labor to install.



I don't see why not. I would not buy from someone that doesn't have a return policy anyway.

Doesn't the mini tank on them plus the piping still cause condensation and dripping, potentially mold?

 

[Boycedrilling]

You guys must have a lot higher humidity than I do. I've never seen a pressure tank sweat.

I have seen in the catalogs where some of the tank manufacturers have insulating covers for their tanks. I've never actually seen one though.

 

[Boycedrilling]

I prefer to hard wire an electric heater in a pump house. So many old pump houses I go into have multiple dead heaters laying on the floor. I think a hard wired base board heater is a lot more reliable. Of course I take the price of electricity for granted. My residential electric rate just went above 3 cent per kilowatt. Irrigation pumps pay in the area of 2 cents, and the data farms are under a penny per kilowatt. I think we have the cheapest electric power in the USA.

If you don't have electricity for the heater, you don't have electricity for the pump either. Good reason to have a backup generator. Or a backup propane or oil heater.

 

[Valveman]

CSV'Ss are accepted by the Washington Dept of Health for public water supply systems. They are included in the design manual.

Yeah I gave them some info for that probably in 94,95. There are a lot of public water systems in Washington using CSV's. Some of them are getting pretty old. Some states have Engineers who understand pumps and systems. Others, not so much.

I replaced a 1994 date code control box on a 3 hp domestic well with a CSV, yesterday . The only reason I replaced the control box was because it was a standard box with no contractor and he was burning up the points in the pressure switch. Installed a control box with a contractor so it's only a pilot circuit on the pressure switch. Tried to get him to let me install a cycle sensor also, but he didn't go for that in addition.

I appreciate you trying to help with my grocery bill. But I don't blame him since it hadn't been giving any problems for so long.

 

[Valveman]

Doesn't the mini tank on them plus the piping still cause condensation and dripping, potentially mold?

Only the bottom 1/4 of the tank has water in it. That isn't much surface area to cover up. There would be more condensation from the pipe than the little tank. If you wanted to insulate everything, the small tank would make that much easier. Sometimes just a small fan is all that is needed to keep the moisture away.

 

[Valveman]

You guys must have a lot higher humidity than I do. I've never seen a pressure tank sweat.

I have seen in the catalogs where some of the tank manufacturers have insulating covers for their tanks. I've never actually seen one though.

The biggest problem we have with condensation is in underground vaults. I have installed entire pump stations in large vaults. And even just a few pipes in a vault can make it rain in there. They really need a little vent and a small fan. We usually put them on a thermostat so the fan comes on and a louver vent opens at a certain temperature and shuts down when it gets cold. If you don't keep it dry down there all the wiring turns green.