Any guesses on what bacteria I have?

[Beets]

I drained my contact tank today (I treat with Hydrogen Peroxide). I didn't see much solids when I started draining. I typically don't see much. But check what came out after I was done draining the tank and moving it around. Treated water moves from the bottom of the tank to the top. If this stuff was suspended or floating, why doesn't it leave the tank? I put a handful of it in clean water, and some floated, some suspended, and some sank. I picked up about 3 gallons of this stuff. I will post some additional pictures. I'm curious if anyone has seen this stuff before. We get a bit of pink in the back of our toilets and at the liquid level in the toilet bowl. However, I never seen nodules. I wish I had checked the H2O2 levels before I drained. I speculate I'm running 10 to 30 ppm H2O2 in this tank. Whatever this is, doesn't mind H2O2.

 

[Beets]

Here are some more pictures:

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

When bacterial issues are present I usually recommend against the use of H202. Unless you are going to keep the levels very high, it can simply feed the bacteria. Is you tank plumbed in correctly? I assume it is a Clack tank? If so the water will typically enter the "upflow inlet" side. if it enters the "downflow inlet" then anything that would float would not exit the system.

 

[Beets]

My tank is a WM-UT-300 Pentair Wellmate tank. I don't believe there are any dip tubes, but I could be wrong as I don't have any manuals on it and have never looked inside. I did some googling, but I'm not sure the product they sell today is the same as the product they sold almost 20 years ago. It is plumbed so Flow goes in the bottom of the tank and comes out the top.

I'm curious if anyone has ever seen anything like this? Is this unusual?

I put some "critters' in a jar, and I'm going to see if I can grow them. If I can grow them, I will see how they like H2O2 and how they like bleach. Right now they just get my raw water.

 

[Beets]

I'm guessing that when I drained the water, gravity was too much for them to stay stuck to the wall, so they slid out the bottom of the tank. If the tank had stayed full, I'm guessing the water currents are not strong enough to move them. I can see them built up in the 3/4" PEX in some places as well, so they do have the ability to "hold on" somewhat.

 

[Beets]

Is there any chance this bacteria is serratia marcescens (SM)? Most references to this bacteria are with respect to the pink stain folks see in toilet bowls and showers. We get that as well.

I've been running my H2O2 injection pump at the max setting for the past week week. H2O2 concentration early in the morning before any water has run (so it's been sitting at least 7 or 8 hours since the pump ran), is over 100 ppm at bottom of the contact tank (my test strips only go to 100 ppm), and 25 ppm at the top of the contact tank. Does H2O2 settle?

I drained the contact tank today, and I recovered at least another gallon of bacteria nodules/slime. Given the H2O2 concentrations, I expected these bacteria to be dead, but they are bright pink and look the same as what I had last weekend. I suspect they are perfectly fine with H2O2 at 100 ppm. I put some of the bacteria in a jar with water, and I added a bunch of bleach. I want to see what dead bacteria look like, but at present, I feel like H2O2 at 100 ppm doesn't hurt them.

 

[Beets]

The bacteria in the jar with a heavy dose of bleach are slowly turning white. I'm not sure if bacteria killed by peroxide would also turn white, but I presume they would lose their pigment after some time.

 

[Beets]

The pink bacteria in the jar with a heavy dose of bleach did turn fully white overnight. I have set up more jars with bleach at 3, 5 and 10 ppm with bacteria in them. The "black" bacteria appears to have went white or clear after a number of hours. The pink bacteria is still looking fairly pink. What this experiment tells me is that it will take a long soak of high dose chlorine to kill whatever I have.....

It's quite curious that my toilet tanks are full of this bacteria. There is a bit of bacteria in the toilet tanks, but nothing like what is coming out of the contact tanks. It really makes me wonder if H2O2 is their food?

 

[Beets]

The black bacteria exposed to the 3, 5, and 10 ppm chlorine mixtures have disappeared. The pink bacteria exposed to the same has grey/white peripheries, but there is still some pink. The 10 ppm chlorine mixture dropped to 5 ppm. The 5 ppm dropped to 3 ppm.

 

[Beets]

No changes to report on the samples mentioned above. I think the pink bacteria are protected by their biofilm, and I don't think they are going to die.

This morning, I mixed up another sample. I lowered the pH of the water by adding vinegar. I think I got it much closer to 7. Normal pH is 8.5 to 9. I then added chlorine and got it to 10 ppm. I then added slime. The black slime. It's been sitting for close to 12 hours, and I don't think lowering the pH has made the "kill" any more effective. I think 10 ppm chlorine is just too low once they've got the biofilm to protect themselves.

 

[Zenon2cubed]

You could try adding more acid, pH 6 is often referenced as optimal.

 

[Beets]

Thank you. I've ordered some test strips that let me measure up to 200 ppm chlorine. I am going to start playing with some higher doses, but wanted to be able to see what I was doing rather than just guessing at it.

 

[Reach4]

Also get a pH meter. https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=ph+meter&_sacat=0

Save a clean jar that can hold 250 ml for making up the calibration solution.

 

[Gsmith22]

i have been periodically following along. I would possibly look into theory with respect to chlorine use and pool sanitation.
check out this thread and chart:

Chlorine/CYA Chart

EDIT: You will find a simplified and standardized version of this chart at Pool School, Chlorine / CYA Chart. Chlorine/CYA Chart by Chemgeek FC = Free Chlorine in parts-per-million (ppm) CYA = Cyanuric Acid in parts-per-million (ppm) CYA ........... Min FC3 ..... Target FC ...... Yel/Mstrd...

www.troublefreepool.com

You will not have any CYA because that is a pool specific aditive to protect chlorine from being "used" by UV radiation (CYA reduces chlorine effectiveness while protecting from UV so don't add either). So with 0 CYA, maintenance levels of chlorine are considered 2ppm but you can see how various shock levels (SLAM in TBF nomenclature) increase and maintain chlorine levels until desired results are achieved. If you go below the chart, SLAM for general algea growth is 5x the maintenance level and SLAM specifically for yellow mustard algea is 8x the maintenace level. This tells me that the chlorine levels need to be based on the type of growth and extent of problem. your problem looks bad (and don't know type of growth) - so I think you are on the right track considering chlorine levels of well in excess of 10ppm. I might even go as high as 50ppm and see what happens.

Also note that proper pool chemistry for chlorine effectiveness wants the pH in the 7.2 to 7.6 range. Definately not above 8 so not having the pH low enough is likely preventing it from killing everything.

You will very much want a digital pH meter and a titration kit for measinging chlorine at very high levels - the FAS/DPD kind of chlorine titration kit. Taylor makes one that is good - K-1515-C is the kit with bigger bottles assuming you will be doing lots of these in the near term. K-1515-A is the same kit with smaller bottles. These kits measure both free chlorine as well as combined chlorine (byproduct of killing stuff) so you know how well the chlorine is working. Test strips generally are terrible and I would highly recommend against their general use in all circumstances. But, more importantly for you, test strips will be competely useless for measuring chlorine in the high concentartions that you are considering. A sister site to the one linked above, https://tftestkits.net/cart.html, sells the standalone chlorine test kits with reagents from Taylor. I have purchased and use their products for my pool and they are excellent. Taylor products are obviously available from other sources too.

for pH meters, I have this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ENFOIQE/ref=emc_b_5_t and it has worked flawlessly. I also ended up getting all 3 pH calibration solutions - I think the kit only has two levels (which might be fine for what you are doing).

 

[Beets]

@gsmith22 Thank you, I do have a titration test kit, but a fraction of the cost of the one you noted. Have you noted big differences in the quality of the test kits? I will confess to being quite lazy when it comes to testing, which may explain why I'm in the situation I am in. I do find it easier to get motivated to test when I'm using strips, but you are right that I likely need to up my game.

 

[Gsmith22]

@gsmith22 Thank you, I do have a titration test kit, but a fraction of the cost of the one you noted. Have you noted big differences in the quality of the test kits? I will confess to being quite lazy when it comes to testing, which may explain why I'm in the situation I am in. I do find it easier to get motivated to test when I'm using strips, but you are right that I likely need to up my game.

I've only used the Taylor based kits so I can't directly comment on other brands. But, as far as test strips vs titration, it isn't even close. An analogy would be like driving somewhere (titration) vs walking there blindfolded (test strips). My guess is that brands of titration kits (or even brands of test strips) would be like comparing one car to another car to get there. Titration is a whole different ball game. The titration kits provide definitive measurement of whatever it is you are trying to measure typically via color change that is impossible not to notice. Test strips are a guess at best to see if you can match colors on strips with color on printed paper and typically they only work over a narrow range. Titration kits work over broad ranges and it is likely that you will need alot of chlorine in ppm to take care of what you have which I would think is beyond the ability of test strips.

With testing, probably the best way to make it easier is to have a magnetic speed stir - I have this one https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Sti...ocphy=9004025&hvtargid=pla-348933121169&psc=1

The result is going to be as good as thetools and effort you put in. My pool is crystal clear and I have never had any measurable algea or need to even SLAM it. I don't think its an accident.

 

[Beets]

Thank you. I've found out I can "kill" the biofilm with chlorine at 50 ppm (still using test strips), but not at 10 ppm. I call it a kill when the pink disappears. It takes 24 hours, and I didn't notice that 100 ppm was any quicker than 50 ppm, nor did I notice that pH adjustment helped. So far, I've just got single sample tests, so my results wouldn't meet any scientific standard.

The biggest surprise so far is the length of time I need for a kill. Having said that, I did find some literature that suggests killing biofilm takes at least 10 times longer than killing planktonic bacteria with chlorine. I need to find a way to get the family out of the house for +24hours, so I can do a proper shock.

 

[Gsmith22]

FYI, for a pool it is shock level and maintain (SLAM) and not just "shock". you have to raise the pool to a very high chlorine level and then keep it there until it can be shown that the chlorine level does not drop from it being used up killing things. Shocking and not maintaining may reduce the problem initially but not completely wipe it out only to have it return. The maintaining of a high chlorine level and testing to verify the chlorine level stays high (overnight for a pool to rule out UV depletion) is I think the key aspect that you may need to consider here given the severity of your problem.

 

[Beets]

I thought I would show you a picture of the whole house filter (Pentek 50 x 5 micron) that is at the inlet to my water system (yes, I have a relief valve upstream of it). Filter was installed March 12, and I removed it today. What strikes me is how clean it is. It almost looks new. I don't see any evidence of biofilm coming from the well. The pressure drop across the filter has been ~2 psi since the day it was installed with no signs of the differential pressure increasing. I figure my well pumps around 6 GPM through the filter.

I tried to do a shock treatment of my well today with chlorine, and the pump quit pumping fluid pretty much as soon as I added the chlorine to the well. I have a pump guy coming to help me tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what we find.

 

[Beets]

There was a fair amount of biofilm on the hose that came out of the well. The biofilm was mostly white, but I saw some tinges of pink. I suspect the "white" biofilm was just bleached. The guy pulling the pump said he has seen much worse, but there was still a fair amount. The biofilm was the worst near the fluid level suggesting that this bacteria is aerobic. We think the pump was still running, but likely has a plugged intake. I was running water from the house down the well casing at the time the pump quit running.