An elephant is a mouse designed by a committee - some work turning into complete replacement? - NO!

[Melissa2007B]

OK, we have an IRC modular house, on a regular foundation since 2004, and some of you may recall a thread where I was talking about doing some minor work like getting rid of the mixer feeding our humidifier, because it quit putting out hot water, and replacing that cursed plastic drain valve.

So, stupid me, I just invited a local plumbing company over for a "free estimate" on doing it, as I didn't feel confident enough to do it myself. I told them in advance that I'm a senior and cant afford "union plumbing rates".

So the guy came out today, and it quickly turned into a picking apart of every plumbing thing - almost in the whole house. He didn't even like the PEX lines running down into the crawl space - they're HOME DEPOT bought stuff - not the good stuff. OMG.

Anyway, the first thing he told me was about that white plastic drain valve. I got the wrong kind of brass one at Home Depot, and they don't usually replace them, except when you get a new water heater. ( OK, I can buy that. ) Mine has been dripping about every 20 seconds, since I tried draining the thing, 2 years ago. But he says that I could just get a cap for this one, and screw it on with teflon and that would seal the leak. OK, I can do that.

BUT he claims that the tank is ALSO leaking. Alarm bells went off in my head! He wants to sell a new water heater! If the tank were leaking, I'm GUESSING it would be spraying all over the place, NOT just the drip every 20 seconds that the white plastic valve has been doing! Right?

THEN he goes to town on the fact that an expansion tank was never put in - "not up to code"! AND the ventilation duct is not up to code either and is putting CO2 into the house. ( Heard these things before from someone else. True? Necessary? I dunno... )

So OF COURSE, they want to replace EVERYTHING AND put in a new water heater, which I DOUBT we actually NEED! Yeah, I told him we can't afford union labor rates, but they get $395 an HOUR for labor. But he figures that's only about an hour anyway. But grand total is $2700! But don't worry, they have "easy" 36 month financing at only $75 a month... ( Ahhhhhh!!!! It's $2700! We replaced this water heater in 2013 and it was around $1000 with labor! Though I don't even know who did it, now - the guy only left me the manuals and no business card. )

Oh, and Rheem and all the others are made in China, but THESE GUYS use water heaters by the only American company still making them, so they're better ( appeal to patriotism, and wait... if they're "better", how come they still only have the same 6 year warranty? AND if we replaced the water heater in 2013 - the manufacture date - isn't that still under warranty? )

So I'm thinking of stepping back and taking a nice deep breath, and getting one of those caps for the white valve and trying THAT, then if THAT stops the drip and no more water is below - it dries up - THEN just finding someone who will do what I need, and not cost me $2700!

As far as an expansion tank and that vent above - thoughts? REALLY necessary or...?

And I had him look at tightening up a sink faucet in the bathroom, that we had a handyman put in a few years ago, and which is now loose, and today he pulled fragmented nut pieces out of there, that he said the guy over-tightened, so they broke. I asked if they could be replaced. No - the whole faucet's gotta be replaced now. True or false?

Photos below:

 

[Terry]

Your venting doesn't look right. There should be a draft hood on it, and then looking further up in your pictures, the connection above may not be right either.

It looks like whoever installed your water heater in 2013 used the old copper flex lines. They got them to seal, but it's a lot easier to replace those when you are installing the new heater. I don't believe you had a plumber do the last install.

If you want to cap a drain with these, there's no need for tape. They come with a rubber seal just like your garden hoses do. Why do so many contractors spoil things with tape?

I doubt that your five year old water heater is leaking though. $2700 for a new one? Wow!

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Melissa2007B]

Thanks Terry. Yeah, our vent goes straight up. I'm not sure how much of this was modular home practices in 2004, or just a bad modular company. ( they have been out of business for some years now, but that was the housing crash of around 2007.

 

[Melissa2007B]

Your venting doesn't look right. There should be a draft hood on it, and then looking further up in your pictures, the connection above may not be right either.

It looks like whoever installed your water heater in 2013 used the old copper flex lines. They got them to seal, but it's a lot easier to replace those when you are installing the new heater. I don't believe you had a plumber do the last install.

Just wanted to address this too. When we had the water heater replaced, the guy mentioned the lack of expansion tank, and that draft hood situation. But we said; "we cant afford it", so he didn't do it.

Our biggest problem here, remains not being able to pay $200-$400 an HOUR for a plumber. If anyone has any ideas for how to find someone we can afford, please tell me?

Update 5-2-18: I bought and put the hose cap on the plastic drain valve yesterday, but the water in the pan below doesn't appear to be drying up. So I looked just now, and that darned plastic drain valve appears to be doing the drip down the side of the water heater now. I brushed my finger on what appeared to be a single drip, and it came up wet.

So now I still need to find someone we can afford, to replace the plastic drain valve, remove and reroute the bad mixer, perhaps do the expansion tank, AND fix that top vent problem, which apparently is more concerning than I'd realized. It appears that the vent was never even fitted properly with the top of the water heater. So it's putting even more CO2 into the house?

 

[Melissa2007B]

( See my top post for photos of this. )

SO I got an estimate from a plumber on doing this stuff, and it's just completely unaffordable. Sky high prices that look like they amount to about $650 an hour plus parts. ( see my other thread when I told about the replacement of that sewer line pipe under the house, where they bid $2100 and it wound up taking 3 hours from the time one plumber got here, until he left, and MAYBE $150 in parts, so about $650 an hour for labor )

And this plumber says that the plastic drain valve cant be replaced, without replacing the whole water heater with one that has a brass drain valve, because this plastic one runs through the whole heater. True? If true, we have to let it drip into the bottom pan, until this water heater finally dies. ( mold allergies )

So my conundrum now is that I need to at LEAST get rid of that mixer valve and the T running between the water line and the cold input at the bottom of the heater, so we can get hot water to the humidifier again. BUT in order to do that, we have to DRAIN the water heater, BUT that plastic drain valve won't work! ( it MIGHT even fail and cause us to have to replace the whole water heater prematurely! )

AND I'm not totally confident that I can remove that T in the cold water input, even IF I CAN drain the tank right. It MAY be all corroded.

 

[Reach4]

And this plumber says that the plastic drain valve cant be replaced, without replacing the whole water heater with one that has a brass drain valve, because this plastic one runs through the whole heater. True?

Totally untrue.

 

[Melissa2007B]

Totally untrue.

So I'm being lied to by people who want to charge $650 an hour... WOW!

So can I just unbolt the thing and screw in a brass one?

I think I saw a post awhile back, that one of these fragmented, while being unscrewed.

And the challenge still remains - how to drain the water heater first?

 

[Melissa2007B]

Totally untrue.

A couple of people have said that, but could someone please show me a video or something, showing HOW I can do it?

 

[Reach4]

Mine looked similar to this one:

Turn off cold supply. Open a hot faucet to admit air. I unscrewed ccw part way, and water came out. I unscrewed further, and that outer piece came out. Then I unscrewd the plastic underneath.

I have only done one. It did not break.

 

[Melissa2007B]

Mine looked similar to this one:

Turn off cold supply. Open a hot faucet to admit air. I unscrewed ccw part way, and water came out. I unscrewed further, and that outer piece came out. Then I unscrewd the plastic underneath.

I have only done one. It did not break.

Thanks. Assuming I can get it out, what kind of brass valve can I replace it with, of what thread size, so I can buy one in advance and have it ready, and not have to have it shut down for more time than absolutely necessary?

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I dont think anyone would be fool enough to actually work on that heater inside a trailer..
if they are giving you a high price it is because they will probably have to rip out all the plumbing
in front of the unit to actually work on it... and they are throwing that high price at you because
they dont want to fool with it.

you will probably break off that plastic drain on the bottom and have a real mess on yer hands



just pay someone to tear it all out and re-do the whole mess with a new heater and be done with it
be careful good luck

 

[Reach4]

These look good to me, but there are others available. These are unusual in that they are full flow. But almost any of the brass ones will be better than the plastic.
Rheem AP12231C-1 Overall Length (in.): 6-1/8
Rheem AP12231B-1 Overall Length (in.): 3-3/4

For getting the water out, maybe you could poke a wire thru before unscrewing the last part.

I cannot be sure the plastic won't break off.

 

[Melissa2007B]

These look good to me, but there are others available. These are unusual in that they are full flow. But almost any of the brass ones will be better than the plastic.
Rheem AP12231C-1 Overall Length (in.): 6-1/8
Rheem AP12231B-1 Overall Length (in.): 3-3/4

For getting the water out, maybe you could poke a wire thru before unscrewing the last part.

I cannot be sure the plastic won't break off.

Thanks Reach. I was actually hoping for something with a spigot knob on it.

 

[Reach4]

I was actually hoping for something with a spigot knob on it.

I would prefer ball valve Legend Valve 107-169NL

This is multi-turn Webstone 11710W

Those Rheem units have a bigger passage.

 

[Melissa2007B]

I would prefer ball valve Legend Valve 107-169NL

This is multi-turn Webstone 11710W

Those Rheem units have a bigger passage.

Thanks Reach! The bottom one is exactly what I'd like. Are these dependent on water heater model, or pretty standard thread sizes?

 

[Reach4]

Pretty standard 3/4 NPT thread.

I took a photo of my old one. When you twist off the big white part, the pieces separate. The part that threads into the WH has a hex on it, which I measured at 1.298 inch. That is pretty close to 1-5/16, which is one of the sizes on a standard shower wrench set.

In the picture, near the black washer, you can see a 1/4 inch hole. There are two such holes, and for you those may be blocked by debris.

If you cannot get the water to drain, you might be able to push water in by using the right garden hose adapter. That may clear the debris keeping you from draining your WH.

 

[Melissa2007B]

Pretty standard 3/4 NPT thread.

I took a photo of my old one. When you twist off the big white part, the pieces separate. The part that threads into the WH has a hex on it, which I measured at 1.298 inch. That is pretty close to 1-5/16, which is one of the sizes on a standard shower wrench set.

In the picture, near the black washer, you can see a 1/4 inch hole. There are two such holes, and for you those may be blocked by debris.

If you cannot get the water to drain, you might be able to push water in by using the right garden hose adapter. That may clear the debris keeping you from draining your WH.

View attachment 47059

Thanks Reach. It wasn't that. I put a hose on it, a few years ago, and started to open it, and the hose started turning and kinking up, so I freaked out and shut it off and removed the hose. Then it may have gotten a particle stuck in it, and has been dripping very slowly into that bottom pan, since. We're allergic to molds, so this isn't good, plus the pan may be draining into the crawl space, which isn't so good. I feel dumb thinking about it now. I should have just turned the whole hose to unkink it, tossed the end in the bath tub and drained it. But I get like a nightmare in my head, of what could happen if the trashy plastic valve breaks and spews water all over the room. We fear what we have no experience doing, and have never done before.

 

[Terry]

Water heaters come with draft hoods.

 

[Melissa2007B]

Water heaters come with draft hoods.

That's what I've been told, Terry, but whoever sold us this water heater in 2013, just hooked it up to the existing mess and didn't use the draft hood.
...Ahh, wait! I just did a search of my PC and found a file noting who we bought it from in 2013. I have no idea why they didn't use a draft hood, though.

 

[Dana]

Draft hoods aren't optional for atmospheric drafted combustion equipment- it's a critical part of the design, essential for proper operation.

Without a draft hood stack-effect pressures can increase the combustion air volumes at the burner well beyond what the burner was designed for. This reduces efficiency, and sometimes safety:

A draft hood offers a safety margin, allowing spillage in the event that something blocks the stack, or the stack backdrafts due to a gust of wind. If a wind-induced backdraft occurs without the spillage relief of a draft hood while the burner is active, the flame can be directed out the air intake at the bottom of the water heater. Flame rollout can also happen in the event that something blocks the flue. Having the exhaust products entering the room air out of the draft hood isn't great, but it's still a lot better than having flames coming out the bottom of the water heater.

Without the additional room air mixing into the exhaust gases the dew point of the exhaust is high enough to condense copious amounts of acidic liquid inside the stack, causing both the stack and heat exchanger inside the water heater to corrode many times faster than normal. This is a reliability/longevity issue.

There may be other aspects of this installation that would cause an inspector to condemn it outright, but the absence of a draft hood would be on the list. Not to be too alarmist about it, in a scenario where a squirrel asphyxiates in the vent stack plugging it, causing a flame rollout that ends up burning your house down your insurer might take issue with how it was installed and may balk at paying.

Humidifiers in HVAC systems are a solution-problem not worth fixing, and well worth de-commissioning in most homes. High wintertime indoor humidity results in high springtime indoor mold spore counts (or worse, rot in the structural sheathing of the house.) Low wintertime indoor humidity is always due to either excessive ventilation or excessive parasitic air infiltration. In most houses the solution is to air seal the house and control the air leakage better, but given the total disaster of how the water heater was installed I'm reluctant to advise tightening up the house without first fixing it and verifying that all gas-burners are properly installed, then testing for backdrafting with all exhaust fans running, with & without the furnace air handler running.

In your case, buy yourself a few ~$10 AcuRite humidity & temperature monitors (available at most box stores, or Wal-Mart) for the rooms that you use the most (not the kitchen or bath, which experience high temporary spikes in humidity) and a standalone humidifier. The human-healthy range is 30-50% relative humidity, but in winter hold the line at no more than 40% RH (35% is even better), which will limit the amount of moisture accumulation in the walls & roof sheathing etc. over the winter.