Alternative to Super Iron Out - horrific smell when used in softener

[ditttohead]

Actually, your question is excellent and is often ignored and can cause problems.

In general, the softener resin makes a poor sediment filter. Most of the smaller sediment will go right through the resin bed. Very large sediment will get caught up in the top screen of the system. The flow rate at the top screen is in excess of 50 GPM per Sq. Ft. so it is easily expelled during the backwash cycle. The sediment that tends to make it through the top screen but does not go through the resin is usually fairly light. The backwash rate of the softener mineral tank is about 5 GPM per square foot, which will cause the resin to expand approximately 30% to aid in cleaning of the resin bed. This is why standard units will have a 50% free board (1/3 of the bed depth).

I hope this helps.



The problem occurs with high loads of sediment, this should be filtered out, or larger heavy sediment and no top screen. The

 

[Reach4]

This is why standard units will have a 50% free board (1/3 of the bed depth).

I have been reading that 50% free board to mean that the resin plus gravel make the tank about half full when not being fluffed up by backwashing. Is that correct? Then where does the 1/3 come in?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mikey]

I have been reading that 50% free board to mean that the resin plus gravel make the tank about half full when not being fluffed up by backwashing. Is that correct? Then where does the 1/3 come in?

I'm guessing that "50% freeboard" means 50% of the depth of the resin, not 50% of the tank. I'm also guessing you don't count the depth of the underbed, because it doesn't fluff up much during the backwash, but I may be wrong there.

 

[Gary Slusser]

People worry about things that don't cause problems as they incorrectly assume they will....

Although resin should never be used as a sediment filter, it does make an excellent filter. Sediment usually will be trapped on top or in the top few inches of resin but is easily backwashed out during regeneration. If there is no top basket and large sediment works its way to the bottom of the tank, it can't get through the bottom basket and all softeners have one and if there is a gravel underbed, the sediment can't get through it to the bottom basket. Not all softeners have a gravel underbed but IMO should have.

Correct, half the bed depth, thereby the resin is not able to get out of the tank during backwash. The straight side of the tank is used, not the rounded shape of the top or bottom of the tank.

An empty disposable cartridge filter housing is an excellent sediment 'filter' for any type of sediment in the water. And a clear housing allows it to be seen which proves its filtering ability.

 

[Reach4]

Ahh... I see View attachment 17108 from https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?31555-Gravel-Bed-Question

So it looks like the about 1/3 of the tank should stay resin-free except during backwash, and 2/3 is gravel+resin... or maybe the gravel is limited to the bottom dome.

 

[stockman20]

This is good stuff...thanks all.

 

[DonL]

An empty disposable cartridge filter housing is an excellent sediment 'filter' for any type of sediment in the water. And a clear housing allows it to be seen which proves its filtering ability.

Sure is.

A magnet even makes it more better for Iron collection.


Have Fun.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Ahh... I see View attachment 17108 from https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?31555-Gravel-Bed-Question

So it looks like the about 1/3 of the tank should stay resin-free except during backwash, and 2/3 is gravel+resin... or maybe the gravel is limited to the bottom dome.

Since softeners come with various height tanks, based on the cuft of resin, 50% freeboard varies in inches, 1/3rds etc., quite a lot. So 50% of the depth of the resin bed (alone) in inches is the measurement. And yes, any underbed is usually not going to be much deeper than the bottom dome but, it has to cover the top of the bottom basket by usually an inch. Except with a Turbulator distributor tube which prevents any underbed.

 

[ditttohead]

The bottom and top dome area is not typically considered in the calculation of a traditional system design except for calculating how much gravel should be used.

The top screen and bottom screen are usually the same slot size, so if it can make it through the top, it can make it through the bottom. Sediment small enough to go through the top screen will easily go through a 1/4" x 1/8" (common gravel size for softeners) gravel. The gravel is sized small enough to keep the resin on top, and is much heavier so that it is not displaced during backwash which could cause long term damage to the tank sidewalls.

A softener will remove some sediment, it is not what it should be used for. If you have considerable sediment, use a proper pre filter.

Clear housings... avoid installing them in locations where water damage is a concern. I have yet to talk to a manufacturer of clear housings (I have worked with almost all of them) who would recommend using clear other than in locations that are not prone to water damage.

 

[Reach4]

Clear housings... avoid installing them in locations where water damage is a concern. I have yet to talk to a manufacturer of clear housings (I have worked with almost all of them) who would recommend using clear other than in locations that are not prone to water damage.

Water damage? Are you talking about filter housings similar to Big Blue? What is water damage in this case? I would think that plastic would be resistant to water damage. Or are you talking about a softener resin tank sitting in flood water?

I remember somebody with unpainted softener resin tank growing algae in the tank, because the tank was outside in the sun. Somebody noted that he could backlight the regen and see the resin rising. I thought that would be cool.

 

[ditttohead]

Clear housings are made out of Styrene acrylonitrile or similar materials. .blue, white, black housings are made out of reinforced (talc or other filler) polypropylene. The clear housings are more prone to failure over time. Any housing can break, but the clear housings are more prone to failure. Polypropylene can not be made clear, only translucent.

Softener tanks can grow stuff inside (even on chlorinated supplies) and it tends to occur more often on the natural tanks that allow more light in than the colored tanks. If I can find the time, I will be posting some videos in the next month of softeners, carbon tanks, and other medias backwashing etc. I will also be doing some good videos of Turbulator perfomance, and I am going to try to do a video of the media guards and how it works. I am building a new clear tank display unit that can be fully pressurized and is built to the actual size and design of a standard system.

 

[Gary Slusser]

The top screen and bottom screen are usually the same slot size, so if it can make it through the top, it can make it through the bottom. Sediment small enough to go through the top screen will easily go through a 1/4" x 1/8" (common gravel size for softeners) gravel. The gravel is sized small enough to keep the resin on top, and is much heavier so that it is not displaced during backwash which could cause long term damage to the tank sidewalls.

I mentioned no top basket but.... All waters have some invisible sediment. If there is visible sediment in a glass of the water, the cause should be found and corrected or a full flow filter such as a backwashed filter should be used. Invisible sediment will not have the time required to work its way to the bottom basket unless the softener is not regenerated in a timely manner; such as every 7-9 days.

Clear housings... avoid installing them in locations where water damage is a concern. I have yet to talk to a manufacturer of clear housings (I have worked with almost all of them) who would recommend using clear other than in locations that are not prone to water damage.

Strange that they don't have a warning on them addressing that, or mention it in their ads.

IIRC there is a warning label saying not to allow them to be damaged by sunlight (and maybe algae growth), but nothing about them breaking if protected from sunlight. I sold and installed a 1000 or more with UV lights in 20+ years (for ease of disinfecting the light and downstream plumbing and filtration if no upstream equipment) and have never heard of any of them breaking. I have been on the internet since 1997 and in water treatment since 1987/88 and I can't recall hearing about any clear housings breaking that were not out in sunlight. And even then it was rare and took years for that to cause a problem other than algae growth.

 

[DonL]

Strange that they don't have a warning on them addressing that, or mention it in their ads.

I think one reason they break, is because users do not Lube the O ring and over tighten them. And break the removal tool.

K-Y will work, if that is all you have.

Sunlight eats at everything, and some things absorb a lot of energy, reflection is more better.


Have Fun.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

The clear water filter housings I have used say right in the instructions that they should be replaced after a specified number of months. I believe it was 24 months, but I do not have the paperwork available to verify that.

 

[Reach4]

I feel better that I got Big Blue housings rather than clear housings.

The Lacos Twist II Clean sediment filter uses a clear housing. I wonder what its expected life is.

 

[ditttohead]

The clear housings are safe to use, they simply have a higher failure rate than non clear. Somebody claiming they put out a thousand pieces over the course of their life is not impressive, nor is it a basis for claiming that a housing is good or bad... we distribute that many every couple of days, and 50X that in non clear variants. The failure rate of clear is very low, less than .01% over 5 years, but that it is far higher than non clear. Some people simply have no clue or simply chose to ignore common sense.

Rgardless, the cost of the filter housings is very low, and they should be replaced every few years if they are located in areas of high liability. If a housing fails in the pump house, most of the time it is not an issue. If it fails on the third floor of an apartment complex... you can see where limiting liability is important. If the filters are installed on private well supplies, then the pressure is well regulated and rarely hits higher than 60 PSI. In some municipal supplies, water pressure can exceed 200+ PSI especially during the night.

 

[Reach4]

Makes me think I should have put a bypass valve around my filter housings. I did put Apollo valves that incorporate unions in series on both sides, so I guess, in a pinch, I could make a piece of pipe with the right ends to connect to the unions.

They only deal with 50 PSI, however, so I am probably not in much jeopardy for that.

 

[stockman20]

In some municipal supplies, water pressure can exceed 200+ PSI especially during the night.

How is this possible? House right next to the water tower?

 

[ditttohead]

In areas like So cal and other regions that have varied topography, water towers are not used. A water towers height determines the maximum pressure. The min and max are set by the towers height, that is why you see some very large tanks that look more like a pancake rather than round. It is to keep the maximum and minimum heights within a specific range.

Areas that have considerable topography issues often rely on direct pumping rather than gravity. In order to get the water up a hill, the water pressure must be very high at the bottom to reach the top at code specified pressure. The guy at the bottom of the hill may see excessively high pressures. UPC 608.2 addresses this with the requirement of pressure regulators if the water will ever exceed 80 PSI. A system that is gravity pressurised physically cant exceed ... PSI (height of water) so a pressure regulator is not needed nor required. In the Los Angeles area, the water pressure may be at 50-150 during the day, but as water usage slows during the night, the pump systems continue to put pressure into the distribution system, so the pressure can exceed 200 PSI. Most plumbing components are "rated" for ... PSI, but the actual burst pressure will always be much higher. A common filter housing has a rating of 100 PSI, but a burst pressure of 350 PSI. Some of the filter housings we test in house burst awell above 600 PSI. The clear filter housings we have tested tend to burst between 250-500 PSI. Burst is only an indication of the amount of pressure it takes to cause a failure on a new component. If you run a component designed for 100 PSI, burst 300 PSI at 200 PSI for any length of time, you will likely get a premature failure of the components. We just did a test on a new pressure vessel with a rating of 1000 PSI, with a qualification pressure of 6000 PSI, we failed it at 7300 PSI. Fortunately it was a non catastophic failure. Dealing with liability, safety, leak claims, etc. on equipment installed all over the world is a lot different than selling a few units online.

 

[Gary Slusser]

The clear housings are safe to use, they simply have a higher failure rate than non clear.

That's a bit different than;

Originally Posted by ditttohead

Clear housings... avoid installing them in locations where water damage is a concern. I have yet to talk to a manufacturer of clear housings (I have worked with almost all of them) who would recommend using clear other than in locations that are not prone to water damage. [/quote]

Logic says no one wants a filter housing to break regardless where it is installed....

Somebody claiming they put out a thousand pieces over the course of their life is not impressive, nor is it a basis for claiming that a housing is good or bad... we distribute that many every couple of days, and 50X that in non clear variants. The failure rate of clear is very low, less than .01% over 5 years, but that it is far higher than non clear. Some people simply have no clue or simply chose to ignore common sense.

LOL IMO and I believe DIYers too, first hand experience counts more than unsubstantiated claims as in the quote from someone that only sells wholesale to distributors. And then when called on the BS statement, says less than .01% in many many many thousands.... Which to me is still an unsubstantiated claim of a wholesaler that sells things to others that he wouldn't use himself in his own home... and who knows what happens with all the shipping and ham handed employees at a distributor that then sell to their dealers and what actually caused the thing to break, I doubt anyone will admit to any mishandling or tightening it too tight etc. etc. Reminds me of certain politicians.