Air Injection, Dual Tanks, sequencing question

[Srfr9999]

Hi All,

I am trying to sort out and clean up a well water system on a house I just purchased in Maine. I literally can't trust a thing as everything the previous owner did seemed based upon cheapest/easiest version he could possibly figure out. Also, I was going to hire a water professional, but after 4 different companies came through with 4 wildly differing proposals I decided to tackle the project myself to make sure I get the exact system I want. I am an architect and sometimes builder, so I do have lots of experience with building and renovating and plumbing and wiring.

Although my test results directly from the well have not come in, I do have comprehensive results from the tap that say elevated Iron and Manganese as well as a slightly elevated level of Arsenic . Attached is a diagram of my current system:

As the system currently sits, the water was coming from the well, running through a hydrocharger device, then into the WellMate HP-7, that was waterlogged, then going through what I think is a check-valve and pressure switch (35-55) with an Amtrol tank Tee'd off from the line, then onto a MacClean head on a 1.0 CF tank. I am not exactly sure of the media in the tank. They might have put greensand in it. I think it was originally an aqua-pure birm filter.

My main goals currently are to properly oxidize the water so that the ArsenicIII can flip to ArsenicV, and to filter out the iron and manganese.

So, step one was to make sure the water is being oxidized. I cleaned out the WellMate tank and soaked the AWC valve in CLR. Although I think I have it working again, I may pick up a new AWC valve just to be sure. I am then rerouting the piping in order to have better access to the hydrocharger for proper adjustment.

I contacted Pentair yesterday, the maker of the WellMate, and they said that the HP-7 with a functioning AWC should be the only pressure tank in the system as it will allow it to vent more air/gasses if used alone. Simply cutting off the Well-X-Trol from the system. (Small household with two people and two bathrooms)

So, finally the question. What do people think of this idea? Having just the WellMate and cutting off the Amtrol? Should there be any additional devices in the system? Like a check-valve before the WellMate? Ultimately, starting at the wall where the water comes into the basement, what should the exact sequence of parts be in order to have good pressure and oxidize the water for later treatment?

Should I not spend a nickel on this setup and take a different route?

What about this split tank setup? Seems really interesting, except for the part with the additional solenoid valve costing $250.

Some additional details:
Submersible well pump
7GPM flow rate

 

[Valveman]

I think you are still going to need the two pressure tank system if you want to use untreated water for irrigation. You can probably use a regular sprinkler type solenoid valve, which is only about 25 bucks.

I will move this to the water softener forum as you may get more help there.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Srfr9999]

I think you are still going to need the two pressure tank system if you want to use untreated water for irrigation. You can probably use a regular sprinkler type solenoid valve, which is only about 25 bucks.

I will move this to the water softener forum as you may get more help there.

I am not necessarily interested in using untreated water for our garden. I would prefer treated, but I do like the idea of having an additional pressure tank to help with it.

 

[Reach4]

Whoever put that system together, used good materials.

If redoing, you could inject hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) or chlorine bleach after the precharged tank, pass that to the Wellmate, and not have an AAV in the Wellmate. Then the 1 cuft tank would contain GAC that would remove the H2O2 or Cl.

If air works well for you, then great.

Air or whatever, note the blow down port on the for the removal of iron etc sediment.

I don't find info on the Cuno L003G. I wonder if it works similarly to http://www.wellmate.com/Files/KnowledgeBase/ItemDownload/en/13866-micronizer-install-mr14.pdf

I am not a pro.

 

[Reach4]

On your diagram at the bottom, I was surprised to see a pressure switch controlling the air injector path. When you use a pressure switch to control air injection, that can work if same pressure switch is also controlling the well pump. So if you control air injection after a pressure tank, I guess the way it works is there is some minimum flow expected to charge the pre-charged tank. And the air injection micronizer could pull in air controlled by the water flow. At first I was thinking this was a powered air pump, but I see now that it is not.

I found the manual that you got that drawing from.

 

[Srfr9999]

The secondary pump switch is basically acting no different than a primary pump switch. It is just allowing each pressure tank to be drawn down seperately.

Are you saying that you are used to seeing the air injection before any pressure switches? That is how my current setup is and it seems like it will just be fouling everything downstream.

Could I go --water coming from well--check valve--pressure switch--pressure relief--WellXTrol tank--air injection--HP7 w/AVC Valve- then filters?

I do believe that this brass Cuno device is similiar to the micronizer.

Thanks

 

[Reach4]

The secondary pump switch is basically acting no different than a primary pump switch. It is just allowing each pressure tank to be drawn down seperately.

I can agree with your description.

Are you saying that you are used to seeing the air injection before any pressure switches? That is how my current setup is and it seems like it will just be fouling everything downstream.

The air should oxidize stuff in the Wellmate tank. The oxidized material falls as a precipitate to the bottom of the tank. You open the blow down valve periodically to flush solids.

Could I go --water coming from well--check valve--pressure switch--pressure relief--WellXTrol tank--air injection--HP7 w/AVC Valve- then filters?

I don't think so. Your micronizer requires a minimum flow. That sequence does not necessarily give you that.

My comments are not based on experience. I am trying to think it through, but I can often be wrong.

Your submersible pump has a check valve. Having an above-ground check valve before the first pressure tank is usually not a good idea.

EDIT: Looking back, it seem to me that your symptom could be due to the hydrocharger/micronizer not injecting air. This presumes that you are not seeing much air in your water. I would look to cleaning that. I think you were thinking that the AVC was releasing too much air. It seems to me that would be unlikely.

 

[ditttohead]

For starters, can you post the water report?

Do you intend to remove the arsenic? A water report would be the first thing we would need to give you any sound advise.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/46
This link shows a common Air injection/KL system design

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/282-283
This link show a drawing of the common installation of anair injection system to a house.

 

[Srfr9999]

For starters, can you post the water report?

Do you intend to remove the arsenic? A water report would be the first thing we would need to give you any sound advise.

Hi. Here is the test result I got back yesterday. This result is from water that traveled from the well, through a non-operative air injector, then the waterlogged WellMate HP-7 tank, but not through the iron filter. So, basically straight from the well:

I added the ug/L column so I could simply see comparison of the different findings in the same measurements. I have read that arsenic removal is helped by high iron to arsenic ratios. 20:1 or higher is optimal.

 

[Srfr9999]

Also, I am finally starting to understand the sequence better. Keeping the air injection device right at the beginning maximizes the flow rate through it. If I stuck it after the other pressure tank there would not be as much flow. So, I have left the sequence as described by my drawing unchanged.

Yesterday I replaced the AVC valve on the WellMate HP-7 tank and now that that is functioning correctly and keeping a volume of air in the tank, the water no longer smells. Pretty amazing how quickly that fixed that problem. My next step is to replace the air injector with a WellMate Micronizer as my old brass one does not seem to be working consistently. I have observed and adjusted multiple times and have found no consistency in it's ability to draw in air into the line. At 7gpm flow rate, I feel confident that the Micronizer will be better.

I am open to the idea of oxidizing in other ways, but do want to keep it simple.

 

[Srfr9999]

Do you intend to remove the arsenic?

Yes. Right now my strategy is to get the oxidation and subsequent iron removal working with a POU RO filter for drinking water. Earlier reports from the tap water show that the iron removal also begins to bring down the Arsenic level to about 20 ppb which I am ok with for now in terms of showering etc. Once the iron removal and RO system are working and shown to have effectively reduced the arsenic for drinking I will eventually install a POE adsorptive media filter to get the whole house really low and then have the RO system as an effective final step in case anything were to go wrong with the POE system.

 

[Reach4]

It should be initially interesting to see what comes out of the blow down port now. Maybe drain into a glass container to let things settle.

My next step is to replace the air injector with a WellMate Micronizer as my old brass one does not seem to be working consistently.

Here are some comments on microronizer cleaning:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/hydro-charger-reducing-flow-rate.53634/#post-391359
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-how-effective-is-iron-out.47363/#post-347115
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/iron-removal-help.55025/#post-402548

 

[Srfr9999]

It should be initially interesting to see what comes out of the blow down port now. Maybe drain into a glass container to let things settle.

I have already taken the tank completely apart and soaked and cleaned with CLR. This is also when I replaced the AVC valve.

I see the blow down port, but have no idea how it is practical. There is no way to reach in there and remove the plug, and even if I could what then? Would it just blow sludge all over the place under the tank? Maybe if the tank was propped up on something so it could be accessed from below?

Also, I have disassembled and cleaned the brass air injector thoroughly. My feeling is that the micronizer's design might be better than the one I have.

 

[Reach4]

I see the blow down port, but have no idea how it is practical. There is no way to reach in there and remove the plug, and even if I could what then? Would it just blow sludge all over the place under the tank? Maybe if the tank was propped up on something so it could be accessed from below?

Remove the 1/2 NPT plug, and screw in a pipe. Use PTFE tape and pipe dope both. Is that a metal or plastic thread that the plug screws into? Not all pipe dopes are OK for plastic, and you don't want to overtorque when screwing into plastic. On the other end of the pipe, put a valve. I would use a ball valve. Put the output of that valve where it is convenient. I don't think it has to stay downhill all of the way, but I would minimize rises.

You could use PEX with an NPT adapter if you like. You could use 5/8 OD 1/2 ID copper with a threaded adapter. You could use steel. I am not sure how I feel about the steel for that, but it does let you do your tightening from the end of the pipe far from the tank.

If you don't get liquids and solids flowing out, stick a small snake in there to clear a path. You could even use an electrical snake I think. Easy snaking would be an advantage of a full-port ball valve.