Air in water (Shallow Well)

Users who are viewing this thread

Brian94

Member
Messages
40
Reaction score
6
Points
8
Location
Spring Grove, Pennsylvania
Good afternoon. I have been having some issues lately with air spitting out of my faucets and toilet. I believe I'm on the right track with what happened the other morning. I used the toilet around 230a and there was no water present. I went to the basement to investigate and discovered the cycle sensor was tripped on dry conditions. My Rainsoft AN runs at 2a. It must be using so much water during regeneration that it runs the well dry. Keep in mind I can fill my 50 gallon tub with no issues, so its obviously using more than that, which leads to a bunch of other questions like flooding of leechfield, but I'll leave that for another day.

Back to the issue, with that being said it was confirmed from my phone call this morning with csv company that the pump will suck air for a couple of seconds before cycle sensor detects it and by then it is already past the pumps check valve (only one on system). Once cycle sensor kicks pump back on 20 minutes later it then shoots that trapped air up the line and into the system where it then can greet me at the faucet. (It was interesting sound to hear the water flowing into the well through the casing. I flashed stream light down, but obviously couldn't see anything. Would have been a good time for the ice cube trick vs. Static level.)

As advised its possible to put an air release valve inline before the pressure tank and or csv1a to solve this dilemma. Would this be the correct item to put on or could a taco vent work?

Does this make sense or am I crazy?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw3jSVCApvWf715eXKSc448m
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....system-after-air-injection-iron-filter.74384/ may give you an idea. The deal is to accumulate air and release it slower. However the pressures before the CSV will usually be fairly high, depending on the pump and more. Do figure out how to sanitize when you sanitize your well and plumbing. A manual release valve at the top could get chlorinated water to hit the water in the air trap.

Make sure your softener and acid neutralizer don't regen a the same time. You could have the neutralizer backwash at 2 am and the softener regen at 3 am.
Also, perhaps you could reduce the duration of your neutralizer. I don't know what the minimum time for effective backwash would be. How many minutes into the backwash does the Cycle Sensor trip? You could trigger a backwash and watch, or you could record the indications with a long video for later analysis.

You are probably filling your tub at 5 gpm and backwashing at maybe 8 gpm?
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
The Cycle Sensor is sensitive enough you can probably set it to shut off the pump just before it pumps the well dry. Watch the display when the well is pumping down and see if there is a big difference in the almost dry and dry amps. Maybe just turning up the Current Adjust feature a small amount will make it work. If not, a continuous acting air vent will work as you suggest.
 

Brian94

Member
Messages
40
Reaction score
6
Points
8
Location
Spring Grove, Pennsylvania
Reach it is interesting with the 3in high loop with what appears to be this: https://www.mcmaster.com/4928k3

As far as the AN and WS goes the time cycles are uncontrollable. It is a electronic head on the rainsoft unit with very little user control. The service man was unable to answer the questions of how long the cycles are with a vague answer of it depends. They regen on separate days one is every 3 days the other is every 4. Sure there might be an interference at some point but one is 12a and the other is 2a. As to the time until it trips I have no idea. I'm sleeping. When a manual regen was done there was zero issues, then again manual might be a shorter duration than standard. As far as filling tub and back wash gpm it should flow the same. Tub spouts are unrestricted or so I thought.

Valveman,
As far as the sensor goes I dont really want to stay up to watch it trip. To me it may be well over half hour and I may miss it when it does catch it. When pump runs dry AMPS typically drop right?
As far as turning up the current adjust feature what do you recommend "a little" consisting of?
3.48x.95 =3.30a is current setting
My pump is 1/2hp at depth of 65' not sure of static level.
 

Attachments

  • 20190809_171748.jpg
    20190809_171748.jpg
    53.3 KB · Views: 182
  • 20190809_171755.jpg
    20190809_171755.jpg
    57.6 KB · Views: 183
  • 20190809_171843.jpg
    20190809_171843.jpg
    42.6 KB · Views: 188

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
7,497
Reaction score
575
Points
113
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
They regen on separate days one is every 3 days the other is every 4. Sure there might be an interference at some point but one is 12a and the other is 2a...
Are you sure the first one is finished before the other starts? Why not set them both to regen after the same number of days? Might there be a limited recovery time on the well where if you were to draw a large bath and then have both regen shortly thereafter, it could run dry?

I set my iron filter and my softener to 3 times a week. The iron filter backwashes a day before the softener regens. The head on the iron filter is manual, so I cannot shorten the time it takes so if I set both to the same day, it is not yet complete when I get up in the morning. I plan to replace them both, the iron filter with a programmable head and the softener with a metered head.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Are you sure the first one is finished before the other starts? Why not set them both to regen after the same number of days?
Or set the acid neutralizer to regen every 6 days if there is not a lot of sediment.
 
Last edited:

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
7,497
Reaction score
575
Points
113
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
Or set the acid neutralizer to regen every 6 days if there is not a lot of sediment.
I don't know which is now set to 3 and which to 4 but having one on a multiple of the other at least assures they don't both run on the same day.
If it is the softener set to every 4 days, then the AN could be set to 4 but if the softener is on the 3 day cycle then the AN could be set to 3 or 6.
 

Brian94

Member
Messages
40
Reaction score
6
Points
8
Location
Spring Grove, Pennsylvania
Update Still drawed air at 3.45 went to 3.50 and was getting false tripped. I believe I'll now have to go with the air relief valve. Is it required to have the 3 in high loop that was in the thread that you have posted reach4 or can I just t it off?
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20190822-164354_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20190822-164354_Chrome.jpg
    53.3 KB · Views: 169

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Update Still drawed air at 3.45 went to 3.50 and was getting false tripped. I believe I'll now have to go with the air relief valve. Is it required to have the 3 in high loop that was in the thread that you have posted reach4 or can I just t it off?
I like the high-loop better because the water flows, rather than having a large dead end.

Just picturing it. I have no relevant experience.

Since your volumes could be larger (don't know), you might want to go higher with your vertical pipes to be sure you are giving enough air storage. I don't know if an air-sucking pump generates a lot of air before shutdown.

It seems to me that the Brian94 design could be simplified by putting the side clamps a little higher and not having the two top clamps. Or maybe just have one top clamp, if your need for symmetry is not bothered by that. Those Unistrut clamps are pretty stable.
 
Last edited:

Brian94

Member
Messages
40
Reaction score
6
Points
8
Location
Spring Grove, Pennsylvania
Last edited:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Good idea reach, I'll get the stuff ordered to throw this together (https://www.mcmaster.com/4928k9). The air sputtering from the spigot can't be good for the pipes, its essentially water hammer on steroids?


Although I was still on the fence about this (https://www.sustainablesupply.com/val-matic-air-release-valve-fnpt-3-4-x-1-2-ci-15a2-c1931426), but I'm thinking 3/4 to 1/2 back to 3/4 would be a bit of a restriction on velocity?

I don't think the air is bad for the pipes, but it it a hazard blowing that water glass out of your hand, and can be scary just from the sound. The burps might not be good for the softener resin.

Air goes through a 1/2 inch pipe very readily. 1/4 inch pipe would carry the air quite well.
 

Brian94

Member
Messages
40
Reaction score
6
Points
8
Location
Spring Grove, Pennsylvania
Thanks for the reply, I will be taking my parts list down to the supply house today and also taking raw sample of water. Who knows maybe i can just quit using the system. I have soft acidic water from my sample 2 years ago.

I still find it incredible at the amount of water the acid neutralizer is using. I have narrowed it to that system, since the sofner did its thing last night.

Rainsoft has zero literature for customer standpoint and the electronic tc head has zero options I can access besides regen time and setting clock. It would be nice if I could adjust the volume of water that it is using.
 

Brian94

Member
Messages
40
Reaction score
6
Points
8
Location
Spring Grove, Pennsylvania
UPDATE; Local rainsoft dealer actually called me back and guided me through the installer menu to reduce backwash cycle by 50%. Too bad the menu is so vague and its like a top secret deal that I would never be able to access it without his help again.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Nice!

How long was the existing backwash?
 

Brian94

Member
Messages
40
Reaction score
6
Points
8
Location
Spring Grove, Pennsylvania
Update since I last posted, I have not had any air in my plumbing. The adjustment on the AN tank did the trick. As far as the duration, I'm unsure he had me set it to 7 from a scale of 1-14. Unsure of what the numbers increment at.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
As far as the duration, I'm unsure he had me set it to 7 from a scale of 1-14. Unsure of what the numbers increment at.

I would be surprised if it were not minutes.

Congratulations on your success.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks