Air in lines, worse after well pump replacement

Users who are viewing this thread

Kaitie

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
I see this has been asked about a thousand times. Had air in the line, it was worse in the mornings or if it hadn't been used in a while. We could hear the air pull from outside when the pressure tank kicked on (bladder tank). Plumber came out and replaced well pump, well pipe, pitless adapter and all the wiring down there. When they took everything out, said it looked like a diy job, pump was from 2002, house built in 1987.

Water was fine for about a week but the air has come back with a vengeance. Now it's every time we turn the water on day or night, sputtering a lot, pipes are knocking. It was just upstairs but now is happening in the sink next to the pressure tank too. Pressure has stayed fine the whole time, and is actually better than it was before the pump was replaced (could this be part of the issue?) Still hearing it pull from outside when the tank kicks on.

Plumber is coming back, but I also wanted to get some opinions on what I should have him check out more.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I see this has been asked about a thousand times.
And a thousand times we started the diagnosis with needing to remove the check valve at the tank. If then, the pump cycles on when no water is being used, you have a hole in the drop pipe or the check valve on the pump is not working.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,530
Reaction score
3,495
Points
113
Location
IL
I presume the pump is down the well, because only a few above ground pumps are piped through a pitless.

So it may be that a few feet below the pitless is an intentional hole or a drain-back valve that was put in when a pressure tank without captive air (bladder or diaphragm) was not used.

Leak could be near the pump where the PVC melted when the old pump failed.

Did you follow about the above-ground check valve or check valve anywhere but at the pump?

Tell us more about "We could hear the air pull from outside when the pressure tank kicked on ". Outside by the well casing?

When the pump runs and you stop using water, how long until the pump shuts off?
 

Kaitie

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
We're not hearing any issues with the indoor check valve. The air pulling can be heard inside, near where the pipe comes from outside (blue arrow in photo, straight part, not elbow).

Pump shuts off after 25 seconds once water stops running.

20220504_170320.jpg
20220504_170316.jpg
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,530
Reaction score
3,495
Points
113
Location
IL
So what is letting the water out?

As far as the air coming in, you could slather that elbow near your blue arrow with shaving foam. If air is sucking in there, then you found your point of air entering.

It may or may not be that that leak so small that no noticeable water could come out. Air goes through smaller cracks

Do you understand the suggestions regarding getting rid of the down-hole water leak? Do you understand the advantage of not having a topside check valve?

That tank (14 or 20 gallons?) is less than half as big as you ideally would have.

Do you know the model of pump down there? If they pull it, take photos of the two labels on the pump assembly. One is for the motor and one is for the "wet end" (tho both are wet).

You might benefit from a CSV.
 

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
6,957
Reaction score
425
Points
83
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
We're not hearing any issues with the indoor check valve.
The indoor check valve can cause the check valve in the pump not to seal which then creates a partial vacuum which will suck in air and/or contaminated ground water which is why that check valve is illegal in most states. Remove it.

Poly pipe connections to barb nipples should have two jubilee clamps, not just one.
 

Kaitie

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
Apologies for not knowing anything about all of this, we are really relying on our plumber. Well pump that was installed is a 1/2 hp 220v 10 gpm pentair. Well is 125' deep. I'll put shaving foam on the elbow and see if any air is leaking there.

So it may be that a few feet below the pitless is an intentional hole or a drain-back valve that was put in when a pressure tank without captive air (bladder or diaphragm) was not used.

Leak could be near the pump where the PVC melted when the old pump fail

Reach4 I think we're confused about this, they completely replaced the well pipe when they installed the new pump. There was no mention of an additional valve or hole when being installed. Or are you talking about between the pitless and the basement interior?


LLigetfa thank you, the previous owner did a lot of DIY fixes/upgrades. We're constantly finding things they did incorrectly.

 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
If that leak on the main line had been underground, it would be sucking dog crap and pesticides into your water system. That is one reason why in states with engineers who have any common sense, check valves above ground are illegal. Remove that blue check valve just under the pressure gauge. If the added pressure from the pressure tank doesn't cause the check at the bottom of the well to start sealing off again, the pump will need to be pulled and replace that check valve.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Apologies for not knowing anything about all of this, we are really relying on our plumber. Well pump that was installed is a 1/2 hp 220v 10 gpm pentair. Well is 125' deep. I'll put shaving foam on the elbow and see if any air is leaking there.

You should hope it is sucking air from that spot instead of somewhere else underground. If you do not remove that check valve, next time it could be underground and you would be drinking ditch water without knowing it.
 

Kaitie

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
If that leak on the main line had been underground, it would be sucking dog crap and pesticides into your water system. That is one reason why in states with engineers who have any common sense, check valves above ground are illegal. Remove that blue check valve just under the pressure gauge. If the added pressure from the pressure tank doesn't cause the check at the bottom of the well to start sealing off again, the pump will need to be pulled and replace that check valve.

Edit - nevermind, I realized what's required is called a dual check valve, not two check valves. We are located in Pennsylvania, I was reading the Safe Water Act Law.
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Edit - nevermind, I realized what's required is called a dual check valve, not two check valves. We are located in Pennsylvania, I was reading the Safe Water Act Law.
A double check or an RPZ can be used after the pressure tank on the line going to the irrigation. But there should never be any check valve before the pressure tank except for the one right on the pump.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,530
Reaction score
3,495
Points
113
Location
IL
Apologies for not knowing anything about all of this, we are really relying on our plumber. Well pump that was installed is a 1/2 hp 220v 10 gpm pentair. Well is 125' deep. I'll put shaving foam on the elbow and see if any air is leaking there.


Reach4 I think we're confused about this, they completely replaced the well pipe when they installed the new pump. There was no mention of an additional valve or hole when being installed. Or are you talking about between the pitless and the basement interior?
The new pipe removes my suspicion about a the hole or drain back valve. So lacking that, how is the water leaking out, which creates the vacuum?

With the topside check valve gone, or deactivated by removing its innards, it may fix that problem. Or if there is a small leak, the pump might run every hour to make up for the leak. Or it could run every 2 minutes indicating a significant problem.

I don't know if a pitless o-ring problem could cause your symptom. People often recommend replacing the o-ring each time the pump is pulled. Your MN pitless might be lower than the basement check valve if the ground falls on the way to the well.
 

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
6,957
Reaction score
425
Points
83
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
Some folks cannot grasp that a fitting can leak under suction but not under pressure. Double up all those jubilee clamps and stagger them on opposite sides. Your plumber needs a lesson or two or you need a new plumber.
 

Kaitie

New Member
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Pennsylvania
Some folks cannot grasp that a fitting can leak under suction but not under pressure. Double up all those jubilee clamps and stagger them on opposite sides. Your plumber needs a lesson or two or you need a new plumber.
We'll do that. I left shaving foam on it for hours and there was no indication air was being sucked in at that elbow.

Wanted to add, we have a whole house pressure monitoring/leak detection system and this entire time we have never had a dip in pressure (except for when water was being used) or any indication of a leak. Not sure if that's helpful or not.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
We'll do that. I left shaving foam on it for hours and there was no indication air was being sucked in at that elbow.

Wanted to add, we have a whole house pressure monitoring/leak detection system and this entire time we have never had a dip in pressure (except for when water was being used) or any indication of a leak. Not sure if that's helpful or not.
The pressure monitor will be very helpful after you remove the check valve at the tank.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,530
Reaction score
3,495
Points
113
Location
IL
We'll do that. I left shaving foam on it for hours and there was no indication air was being sucked in at that elbow.
There also was no repeat of the indication that the air was leaking in elsewhere. It could be that a little foam got sucked in and closed the path for now. Was the sound you heard before intermittent, or did it occur each time the pump stopped running?
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks