Afraid of water-leaking when replacing faucet compression shut-off valve

Users who are viewing this thread

JasonM

Member
Messages
100
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Location
California
Maybe due to lack of enough experience, I am afraid of water-leaking when replacing the faucet compression shut-off valve.

May I ask 2 questions regarding replacing the faucet compression shut-off valve?

1. If the water leaks even after replacing is done according to proper method, what can be done without cutting or
soldering the 1/2" copper pipe? In addition to tightening the nut a little bit more, can I try putting some plumbers putty, tape, or joint compound around the ferrule?

2. If unscrewing and tightening or replacing the compression shut-off valve more than a few times on the same copper pipe, will the underlying 1/2" copper pipe get damaged or affected due to pressure coming from the ferrule so that will it have to be either cut or soldered? In other words, how many times the compression shut-off valve is replaced on the same 1/2" copper pipe if it is done properly?

Thank you very much.
 

Terry

The Plumbing Wizard
Staff member
Messages
29,942
Reaction score
3,458
Points
113
Location
Bothell, Washington
Website
terrylove.com
If you can remove the old ferrule and nut, it's an easier job. I use a sleeve puller for that. I sometimes put just a little thread sealant (dope) around the edge of the new stop where the threads start. 99% of the time it's not needed though. No tape, no putty.
If the copper looks dented in I will cut some back. If it looks good, then maybe at the most a little swipe with some emory cloth to smooth it.
How many times depends on how fierce the other guy was when he was turning wrenches. You don't have to be Hercules, just tighten it normally.
It's meant to seal.
 

JasonM

Member
Messages
100
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Location
California
Thank you Terry very much for the very useful tips.
I will have the thread sealant ready before doing it.
Thank you.
 

JerryR

Active Member
Messages
584
Reaction score
41
Points
28
Location
Florida
I replaced 19 angle stop shut offs in my house a few years ago with Dahl 1/4 turn compression angle stops . That was my first time. Not one of them leaked.

I bought a Pasco Compression sleeve puller which worked great to get the compression rings off.

I highly recommend that tool or something similar.

another suggestion is to use a Shark bite angle stop after removing the old compression stop.
 

JasonM

Member
Messages
100
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Location
California
Thank you JerryR very much for the comforting comments.

I just wanted to know how to handle any leaks just in case. Since I am a DIY, I want to prepare as much as possible.
I already have Pasco Compression sleeve puller and used it a couple of times several years ago.
I also bought the Shark angle stop as a standby.

Thank you very much.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
The body of the pipe must be round and not all scratched up (well, gouges) for a compression fitting to seal well as well as a Sharkbite. The Sharkbite (and similar units from other companies) rely on an O-ring to make the seal, so the end of the pipe and the parts where the seal will go must be smooth for them to work.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,797
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Also note that the danger of overtightening a compression valve is overblown IMO. Unless your wrenches are long, it is hard to get too much torque in my limited experience.

The oil helps tighten a little more for the same amount of torque on the wrenches. Yes, you need two wrenches.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
Dry threads, especially if they are not cut well with a sharp tool during manufacturing (a more common problem since lots of them come from China now) are easier to tighten smoothly if you put a drop of oil on the threads. Not essential, but easier if you don't do it often.
 

JasonM

Member
Messages
100
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Location
California
Thank you jadnashua, Reach4, JerryR very much for the additional comments.

I have written down the procedure to do it. I have the 2 spanner and adjustable wrenches. I also have the 3-in-1 oil to drop on the nut thread.
I will make sure the 1/2" copper pipe is round and smooth with no dents. I will tighten a little more if it leaks without worry.

Thank you very much.
 

JasonM

Member
Messages
100
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Location
California
Thanks to the tips I learned from here, I finally installed the compression fittings dual shut off valve successfully.

20200412_112852a.jpg


20200412_112852a.jpg

After I removed the old ferrule and nut with the Pasco puller, I cleaned the 1/2" copper pipe for the mineral deposits with emory cloth. And I noticed that there was a slight nick or line dent about a 1/4" to 3/8" around the pipe at 3/4" from the end of the pipe. It later showed that the line or nick is right after the newly inserted ferrule. I do not know what caused it. At first, I worried a little if this could be a problem, but I wanted to try it without cutting it.

After I tightened the nut first time, it leaked the water just a tiny bit at the back of the nut. So I tightened a little at a time, testing after each time, 3 more times. Since it still leaked a tiny bit at the back, I unscrewed the nut and applied the thread (I edited later from tape) sealant enough on the thread(the sealant shows on the pipe in the photos), not changing the new ferrule again. After I went thru the process of tightening a little bit and testing 3 times, it finally stopped the very tiny leak.

20200412_113124.jpg 20200412_113824.jpg

Now, I have 3 questions.

1. I noticed that the dual shut-off valve has no easy place to have a grip on when tightening. I used a small channel lock pliers about 45 degree from the front sideways to hold it still when tightening. So, it was difficult to tighten the nut since holing still the dual shut-off valve was not easy. Is there any better way or tool to hold it when tightening the nut?

2. Is the tiny leak at the beginning coming from the nick or tiny line dent after the ferrule or from the difficulty in tightening the nut?

3. If there is a tiny leak, is the leak coming from the space between 1/2' copper pipe and ferrule or from the space between the ferrule and nut?

Thank you very much.

brasscraft-double-stop-1.jpg
 
Last edited:

Terry

The Plumbing Wizard
Staff member
Messages
29,942
Reaction score
3,458
Points
113
Location
Bothell, Washington
Website
terrylove.com
Those are hard to hold. It may be that because of that, it was just harder to tighten it as tight as it needed for the seal.
Sometimes if I see a dent from a previous install, I will cut back a little if there is space for that.

channel-lock-pliers.jpg
 
Last edited:

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
As opposed to a tapered, iron pipe thread that will leak without pipe dope or PTFE tape, a compression fitting's nut is not providing waterproofing other than the fact it's compressing the ferrule on a metal to metal joint. In fact, often adding tape will cause a leak when you add some!

Yes, the nick could be the source of your drip, but it may just need another 1/8-1/4 turn.
 

JasonM

Member
Messages
100
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Location
California
Thank you Terry and jadnashua very much for the comments.

Terry, there is not much space left, I think, as the photo shows, so, I wanted to try first without cutting. Thanks to your tip, I applied thread sealant enough and it stopped the leak. So, there is no L shape tool that holds the shut-off valve better when tightening. I think the manufacture should notice this problem and change the design a little bit.

jadnashua, I do not know what caused the minute nick. I think because of that the previous shut-off value was leaking a very little bit, and that is probably the reason there was some mineral deposits around the pipe and previous nut. And the old escutcheon plate was corroded around the middle hole.

Thank you.
 
Last edited:

AZJeep

New Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Phoenix
You don't have to be Hercules, just tighten it normally.
It's meant to seal.
Are there any problems caused with overtightening? I just replaced a valve with a Dahl 1/4 turn, the pipe was a little rough but no extra copper to cut so I went for it, the valve felt loose until I really tightened it down. Seems ok, didn't leak when I turned the water back on.
 

Terry

The Plumbing Wizard
Staff member
Messages
29,942
Reaction score
3,458
Points
113
Location
Bothell, Washington
Website
terrylove.com
Are there any problems caused with overtightening? I just replaced a valve with a Dahl 1/4 turn, the pipe was a little rough but no extra copper to cut so I went for it, the valve felt loose until I really tightened it down. Seems ok, didn't leak when I turned the water back on.

It's really hard to say how tight. The sleeve needs to be tight on the pipe and that's enough. I have encountered a few where they were installed much too tight in my opinion. I have two pullers I use. Sometimes they just slide off, and other times, I have to cut the pipe behind the sleeve and start with fresh pipe behind it because someone squeezed the copper down so far.
 

Jeff H Young

In the Trades
Messages
8,759
Reaction score
2,166
Points
113
Location
92346
I had a real long run going on with no angle stop leak and had one 2 weeks ago . the original was super super tight put new stop and ferrule and nut it had a drip after I left ( no cabinet was installed so no damage ) went back tried tightening still leaked , removed put back on with a little dope on threads put back on, still leaked , removed threw in trash along with nut and ferrule started over with new stop and all good no leaks. When remodeling a bathroom I like to replace the stubouts , just a way better job in my opinion to have a fresh stub out of course it definitely costs time. I have my precautions but they still can be a little finicky.
 

AZJeep

New Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Phoenix
It's leaking (valve from my question a few posts up), not really leaking bad, the valve is wet, don't want that so I have to cut the dented part off. There will not be enough there to use another compression valve.

So the way I see it, I have 2 options - solder on a coupler and a length of copper to work with however that is going to take the valve far from the wall and look bad. Second option, solder on a MIP adaptor and go with a valve with 1/2". FIP inlet.
Dahl doesn't make one (at least they don't sell one at Ferguson plumbing) so I'm looking at the Brasscraft. Would prefer Dahl, the only experience I have with Brasscraft is the junk they sell at the big box stores with the plastic ball. I'm guessing the one sold at the plumbing supply stores is a better valve.

I didn't do anything yet, I can't have the water off for hours and it was too late to get to Fergusons before they close. Until I have the needed supplies, I can't remove the valve to see exactly what I have to work with. Also I would really like to not have to knock out drywall so I'm working with a nub of copper pipe.

Questions:
I'm right up against the wall, if I cut the pipe behind the ferrule I'll have about 3/8" to the escutcheon.
I'm not bad at soldering, that said I'm not a pro either. I've only solder joints with a good round pipe fully inserted in the coupler/adaptor.

If I can get this ferrule off, I might have a little more to work with but it might have a dent (won't know exactly how much good round pipe until I dig into it)
Can I get a good joint using a slightly damaged/dented pipe? I think I know the answer but might as well ask.​

If I cut to get all round pipe, I'm not going to be able to fully bottom out into the mip adaptor and be able to sweat it with current escutcheon.
Is it safe to sweat adaptor with 1/4" to 5/16" or so of pipe in adaptor?
How thick are those hinged escutcheons? They look like they will expose more pipe giving me a hair more to work with plus I can put on after sweating pipe.
I really appreciate any help/advice/ for this - have to get this valve straightened out before installing a new Toto Entrada toilet.
 

Jeff H Young

In the Trades
Messages
8,759
Reaction score
2,166
Points
113
Location
92346
I was kicking around picking up a few bell escutcheon so there would be room for a 1/2 coupling they stick out off the wall a bit more but never seen or used them other than ran across on some real old work, if there is a hold right or hyco coupling your kinda screwed inside a cabinet and suddenly the idea of a high box or a bell starts sounding a lot better than nothing.
you could put a FIP on with nipple along with a deep flange
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks