Advice on Plumbing 2500-gal Water Storage Tank into Existing Well System

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FoxRedLab

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My wife and I have lived for two years in a home built in 1993 on a 5-acre property. Water is supplied by a 1.5 Hp pump from a 450-ft well. Water quality and flow (5 gpm) are good, but there is no water storage other than what is in the pressure tank (I think about 80 gallons). Pressure is adequate, but not constant. You don't want to be in the shower when a toilet is flushed!

Annexed to the pump house, I have built an insulated shed to enclose a 2550-gallon water storage tank. My plan is to use the well pump to fill it, and to use another pump adjacent to the tank to pressurize the house system. I hope to top off the tank using off-peak electricity and to initiate a top-off only after the level drops by a few hundred gallons. In addition to the advantages of having a stored-water source, I'm hoping I get more life out of my well pump. So, here are my questions:

1. What type and capacity of pump should I use to pressurize the house system? There is plenty of room for it in the shed, where it will be protected from the elements.
2. Should I use a Pside-kick? (Having lurked on this forum for a few days, I think I know what you'll say...) If so, what capacity?
3. Should I retain the pressure tank? It sits about 10 feet from the center line of the water tank.
4. Should the water tank obviate the need to filter for sand and grit? I have had a small problem with clogging hose screens, etc.
5. What system pressure should I shoot for?
 

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but there is no water storage other than what is in the pressure tank (I think about 80 gallons).

An 80 gallon pressure tank holds only 25 gallons of water at best.

I hope to top off the tank using off-peak electricity and to initiate a top-off only after the level drops by a few hundred gallons.

Set the on/off level of your float switch with a wide bandwidth and run it through a timer that only works during the off peak hours.

1. What type and capacity of pump should I use to pressurize the house system? There is plenty of room for it in the shed, where it will be protected from the elements.

You may only need a 10 GPM pump to have plenty for the house. That is probably twice what you have now. But you need to size the pump large enough to handle as many fixtures as you want to run at the same time, or you will still have a low pressure problem. A 1 HP, 20 or 25 GPM submersible in the storage tank would do anything you want. It will take about a 1.5 HP jet pump to do the same if you had rather plumb to a pipe coming out of the storage tank.

2. Should I use a Pside-kick? (Having lurked on this forum for a few days, I think I know what you'll say...) If so, what capacity?

The Pside-Kick would work great with the booster pump. The CSV1A in the Pside-Kick would let you install up to a 25 GPM pump, and still be able to use as little as 1 GPM, hold a strong constant pressure to the house, without cycling the pump.

3. Should I retain the pressure tank? It sits about 10 feet from the center line of the water tank.

If you retain the 80 gallon pressure tank and use the same pressure switch, all you need is a booster pump and the CSV1A valve by itself. The 25 gallons stored in the 80 gallon tank don’t help much when you have 2500 gallons of stored water and a CSV to eliminate pump cycling. But no reason not to use a perfectly good tank, and any size tank will work with a CSV. If the tank is old, you might consider installing the complete Pside-Kick kit in front of the old tank. That way you can just remove the old tank later if/when it fails.

4. Should the water tank obviate the need to filter for sand and grit? I have had a small problem with clogging hose screens, etc.

If the pump intake is several inches off the bottom of the storage tank, a lot of the sediment will settle to the bottom and need to be vacuumed out later. A filter on the line coming from the well pump may be an option to keep the storage tank clean.

5. What system pressure should I shoot for?

40/60 is the most common pressure. I recommend 50/70 for houses with an upper floor.
 

FoxRedLab

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Thanks for the detailed response!

I'm on a 3-week vacation, so progress on the system is in suspension. As I have time on the internet, I'll continue to do some homework on parts selection. I'll post further progress and results as they are achieved. Thanks again, and I'll be back in touch.
 

Texas Wellman

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The well pump probably doesn't have anything to do with the water pressure in your house when you flush the toilet etc. I would guess that would be a clogged pipe/plumbing issue and won't go away even with a booster pump/tank.

Why do you think your 1.5 HP only puts out 5 GPM? How deep is your pump set?

Cary if the well is equipped with an air maker type galv. tank it will have about 40-50 gallons of water in the tank and a drawdown of about 10-20 gallons.
 

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Cary if the well is equipped with an air maker type galv. tank it will have about 40-50 gallons of water in the tank and a drawdown of about 10-20 gallons.

Yeah I guess we are not sure if it is a bladder tank or not? I guess that 40-50 gallons of water left in a galvanized tank could be considered "storage", but you would have to drain it into a bucket to be able to use it.

Even if the lines in the house are just too small, extra pressure from the pump will usually help somewhat.
 

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Yeah I guess we are not sure if it is a bladder tank or not? I guess that 40-50 gallons of water left in a galvanized tank could be considered "storage", but you would have to drain it into a bucket to be able to use it.

Why do those systems release so much air? It would seem to me (who has not even seen one of these systems) that they could retain more air, and support a bigger draw down in the process. Is that to minimize a big air burst if the pump stops for some reason?
 

LLigetfa

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Is that to minimize a big air burst if the pump stops for some reason?

I have a composite hydro-pneumatic tank that has the AVC set so low that it overcharges the tank. If/when the pressure drops too low, too fast, the AVC cannot purge the air off fast enough and air will burp forward into the iron filter. The air will accumulate in the iron filter and get purged on the next backwash. However, if the air burps forward during the backwash, it will air lift the media up into the valve assembly.
 

Texas Wellman

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The air is dictated by the location of the air release. Most tanks have the air release (some call it AVC) right in the middle. You can supercharge any hydro-pneumatic tank and double or triple it's drawdown. Even if you have an 80 gallon tank and have 1/2 water to air you can use the water all the way down to the last bit of pressure (5-10 psi). With a bladder tank the micro-second that the bladder empties you go from full pressure to zero water.

Cary when the OP mentioned an 80 gallon tank I'm really thinking it's a galv. tank.

If a metal (galv.) water pipe is 1/2" new and then gets clogged down to less than a pencil you can put 100 psig on the system and it ain't gonna make it better. Is it better to take a shower at 10 GPM and 10 psi or 1 GPM and 100 psi? There is a happy medium in there somewhere but I have lived with the clogged pipe problem and there's only one way to fix it. We have installed many new pumps and put the pressure as high as it would go and still the customer thinks the well isn't putting out enough pressure.

I have always thought that the avg. person with modern plumbing can not tell when the pressure cycle is at the 30 psi mark or 50.
 
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FoxRedLab

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Why do you think your 1.5 HP only puts out 5 GPM? How deep is your pump set?

I believe that the pump is set at about 450 feet, so the pump is pushing a column of water that weighs over a ton.

By the way, if the pump matches the controller (Franklin Electric Model 282 300 8110), it's a Franklin Electric Pump, Model 224 300 19—S (“Super Stainless,†3-wire, Single Phase, 1.5Hp, 230V, 60Hz, 650 lbs downward thrust rating per the Franklin catalog).

As part of the overall project, I'm thinking of adding a Pumptec-Plus to protect the well pump against rapid cycling, a drop in water level, etc. Would that be prudent?
 

FoxRedLab

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Yeah I guess we are not sure if it is a bladder tank or not? I guess that 40-50 gallons of water left in a galvanized tank could be considered "storage", but you would have to drain it into a bucket to be able to use it.

I'm pretty sure it's a bladder tank, and that the bladder remains intact.

Even if the lines in the house are just too small, extra pressure from the pump will usually help somewhat.

The lines in the house are pretty standard: 1/2" and 3/4" copper, depending on application. The main line from the pump house to the residence is (I think) 1" or 1.25" galvanized. Not having done much galvanized work, I'm not very good at eye-balling pipe size.
 

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A Pumptec will not work with a Dole valve, ball valve, Cycle Stop Valve, or anything that restricts the flow and reduces the amps draw of the motor. Any restriction of the water flow reduces the amps and makes the Pumptec think the well is already dry when it is not.

The underload of a Cycle Sensor can be set low enough so as not to trip when restricting the flow, but will still shut the pump off if the well is pumped dry.

On BTW, water in a 1.25” galv pipe only weighs .65 # per foot. So water in 450’ of pipe only weighs 293 pounds.
 
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FoxRedLab

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A Pumptec will not work with a Dole valve, ball valve, Cycle Stop Valve, or anything that restricts the flow and reduces the amps draw of the motor. Any restriction of the water flow reduces the amps and makes the Pumptec think the well is already dry when it is not.

The underload of a Cycle Sensor can be set low enough so as not to trip when restricting the flow, but will still shut the pump off if the well is pumped dry.

As I envisioned it, the system would essentially have two circuits driven by independent pumps. The only function of the well pump, which I was proposing to protect with a Pumptec, is to fill the 2500-gal storage tank. Well-pump cycling should not be a problem, because the tank will only call for water after the level is down a few hundred gallons. There would be no flow restrictions other than those imposed by the spin-down filter and whole-house filter that I intend to use to limit the crud deposited in the storage tank. In the storage tank, another pump pressurizes the house system, which includes the pressure tank. My understanding of your earlier suggestion is that a CSV would be used in the second circuit, where it would presumably extend the life of the (easily replaceable) submersible pump in the storage tank by protecting it from cycling. A Cycle Sensor might add additional protection for the tank pump. Because I can easily monitor the storage tank, I'm not terribly concerned that I'll pump it dry, so I suspect that a Cycle Sensor would be overkill.

On BTW, water in a 1.25” galv pipe only weighs .65 # per foot. So water in 450’ of pipe only weighs 293 pounds.

I based the calculation on 4" pipe, which I now realize is the size of the well casing but not the water pipe within it. I actually may have 1" rather than 1.25" pipe, so the water column would weigh even less.
 

Texas Wellman

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I'm not really an expert on water storage systems like what you want, our wells here generally make 30+ gallons per minute. I have seen those large cisterns paired with wells when we vacation in the hill country and wanted to get a closer look. I think you're on the right track. I would simply keep the bladder tank and pair it up with the constant pressure device of your choice paired with a ~10 GPM pump.
 

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Many times people add a Cycle Sensor to the well pump filling a cistern when the pump/motor is not lasting as long as it should. They call me and say the Cycle Sensor is cutting the pump off and showing a Rapid Cycle error. “There is no way the pump can be cycling as it only works with a float switch and fills several hundred gallons at a time.”

In fact the pump was cycling, which is found to be why the pumps are not lasting. How can this be? Many times the flow into the cistern causes waves that bounce the float switch, causing multiple and rapid cycling that destroys the pump.

If everything works perfectly, you don’t need a Cycle Sensor. However, the Cycle Sensor is for those times when things don’t work perfectly.

And even though you can “easily monitor the storage tank”, you can’t stand there and watch it 24/7. Murphy’s law says that if anything can go wrong, it will. And unfortunately it always goes wrong when you are not looking. Better safe than sorry. Or be sorry you didn’t play it safe.
 

Reach4

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There are cistern fill controls available. Some would use two float switches. You could implement that with a relay (contactor). The top float switch would stop the power to the relay if the water gets that high. The bottom switch would energize the relay. A normally-open auxiliary contact on the relay would parallel the bottom switch, so that the relay would stay energized on its own. But if the top switch opens up, the relay drops out. The pump stops. The lower switch would have to close again to get the pump back on.

There are electronic sensor controls too. If you search for cistern pump control switch you will find offerings.

Another idea is a single float switch that powers an electronic relay that keeps itself on for a period of time after its control voltage goes away. That period would set the minimum pump run time.

Maybe somebody will know of a single float switch with built-in hysteresis, and you could supplement that with a baffle to keep wave action minimized.
 

FoxRedLab

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I have a Pside-Kick on order for the tank-to-house side of my system, and I'm triangulating on a sub pump for use in the tank, as well as dual float switches and a solenoid valve to control water delivery from the well pump to the tank. The water line from the pump is 1-1/4". I may have messed up when I purchased a spin-down filter and a 20" cartridge filter to de-grit the water before it goes into the tank, because I got units with 1" connections. Will that constriction be too much, or is it inconsequential? So far, I have no located a cartridge filter with 1-1/4" connections. I suppose I could get filters with 1-1/2" connections and use a reducer to connect with the 1-1/4" supply pipe. Counsel?
 

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A single float switch turns the pump on and off. A second float switch is only for a low level safety and is redundant if you already have a dry well protection relay on the well pump.

1" filter is probably good to 15-20 GPM.
 
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