Advice about shimming a new wobbly TOTO on a badly tiled floor?

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Electricview

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New here seeking some advice about stopping wobble.

recently did our own tile job on a tiny 5x5 bathroom and obviously we didn't do good. The tile is un-even around the toilet (mostly low in the back, but a little high on one side too). Anyways long story short when i put just the bowl down on the johnny bolts (no nuts yet), if i lean on the tip of the bowl, the back comes up about 1/4th of an inch (give or take a 16th of an inch). So i jammed 2 of the small clear thicker plastic shims from HD in there on each side of the back. that seems to solve the the front leaning forward problem (and i think better levels the toilet though its not absolutely perfect, but the bubble is between the lines) But when i put my hands on the left and right of the bowl i can get more wobble. Becuase those back tiles are lower, i need 2-3 more wedges on each side, for those i use mostly the composite ones I found at HD in the doors area, but i also use a clear one when the gap gets wider (closer to the tile near it which is atiny bit high, yeah itsa BAD job we did know but we really do not want to tear it out and start over).

So my main question is, that even with all those shims its much better, but if i push hard enough i can still get the bowl to tilt up on a side, tho it takes alot more pushing so i'm guessing i'm just forcing it too much? If i sit on it and just wobble around, that doesnt happen, but i do the feel the slightest bit of movement, like if i had to guess it would be a 32nd of an inch if even that.. so this is all without ANY nuts on the johnny bolts. would putting those on this point to check for wobble help? Or do i need to stop absolutely ANY movement before those nuts are screwed down to the toilet?

Another problem is that since the tile is installed bad its not straight in the back, so when the shims slide under, only half the shim (if even that) makes contact against the toilet edge unless i slant the shim which seems to help, but i'm guessing will be a nightmare to cut and break off...?

and no i haven't put any wax ring in there yet, Going to use a double thicker one with the black funnel cuz i'm afriad with the 1/4th lift in the back i'll have too much of a gap between the flange and toilet cuz the flange is almost DEAD flat even with the tile (not above or below really).

I did purchase a sani-seal and fluidmaster waxless ring, which i have neither used either, but after getting home and reading about them on here, and leaning towards a wax ring as there's horror stories from both those..

Anyways Thanks for any advice you can give!
 

Reach4

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I presume it was not a Toto with a Unifit.

The shims you want are the composite shims made for doors and windows. Cut them with a saw. I marked the edge on the shim, pulled the shim, cut, and put the shim back. That way the shim did not extend out beyond the toilet base. http://www.homedepot.com/p/8-in-Composite-Shim-Bundle-of-12-SHM1-12-TW/202807695?keyword=composite+shims

Tell us about your closet flange and how far its top is above or below the tile. If you use wax, you should position the shims before dropping the toilet onto the wax. With waxless you can insert shims after you have dropped the toilet.

I think you should be able to stop all movement. You only need contact at 3 fairly widely separated points to stop wobble. I used a level myself, rather than just going for no wobble. But that is not the normal thing to do. I was not on the clock.

But if the flange sits too high, or too low, you may be better with wax.
 
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Terry

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You are heading in the right direction. Shimming is done at the back, pinning the front of the bowl to the floor. If things are going to be out of level a bit, I prefer the back of the bowl to be the high side. That keeps more water in the bowl.
Don't berate yourself about the tile job. I'm sure it looks nice and it will do. So........shimming at the back, and then caulking most of the around the bowl, with something water base that dries clear.


loctite-tub-tile.jpg


toilet-shims-terrylove-01.jpg
 
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Electricview

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I presume it was not a Toto with a Unifit.

The shims you want are the composite shims made for doors and windows. Cut them with a saw. I marked the edge on the shim, pulled the shim, cut, and put the shim back. That way the shim did not extend out beyond the toilet base. http://www.homedepot.com/p/8-in-Composite-Shim-Bundle-of-12-SHM1-12-TW/202807695?keyword=composite+shims

Tell us about your closet flange and how far its top is above or below the tile. If you use wax, you should position the shims before dropping the toilet onto the wax. With waxless you can insert shims after you have dropped the toilet.

I think you should be able to stop all movement. You only need contact at 3 fairly widely separated points to stop wobble. I used a level myself, rather than just going for no wobble. But that is not the normal thing to do. I was not on the clock.

But if the flange sits too high, or too low, you may be better with wax.


the flange (top of it) is almost completely flush with the tile around it (except the low side of the tile is like a 32nd of an inch taller in the back of the flange and the tall side of the tile (opposite side of the flange) is like a 32nd shorter) but the flange it self is near close, when i slide a level along the tile over the flange, it just barely does not touch it, like a 32nd or something almost un-measurable like that (I have a small metal 32/64th ruler from harbor frieght i use sometimes for such estimates). These are of course 'rough' estimates, but the flange is definately nothing like a 1/4 or 1/8th above/below the tile.. its just about exactly flush with it.

the shimming wouldn't bother me so much if i could trust any of these waxless seals cuz then i could just keep adjusting the shims after i've already put the seal on and it wouldn't break the 'wax' cuz there is none..

thats my biggest fight is that if i put the shims in place, (and even cut them and all that) then lift the toilet to put the wax on, then set the toilet back down if a single shim has moved a bit (and they did when we lifted the toilet, cuz we did not tape them down, which would be impossible if i pre-cut them right?) then when we go to set the toilet back down a little wobble may return.

Maybe i'm not using enough shims? should i use a lot so there's no much space between them? i'm fairly certain just 3 isn't stopping the wobble, does that mean i'm just not hitting the 'hot points' of where its wobbling?

also (sorry for some many questions, its how i learn). Is it bad for the toilet to bave only 3 shims supprting its weight and nothing under it in those other are as? (does this put un-even stress on it and may cause problems later? my guess would be the toilet is designed so that the entire bottom lays flat and dispurse weight evenly and i'm guessing just 'caulk' or polyseamseal as i've seen terry mention a ton, is not meant to actually 'support' any weight when used.

I can take pictures of anything if it helps.
 

Electricview

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You are heading in the right direction. Shimming is done at the back, pinning the front of the bowl to the floor. If things are going to be out of level a bit, I prefer the back of the bowl to be the high side. That keeps more water in the bowl.
Don't berate yourself about the tile job. I'm sure it looks nice and it will do. So........shimming at the back, and then caulking most of the around the bowl, with something water base that dries clear.

loctite-tub-tile.jpg

thanks! i've read MANY of your posts here, that how is i went with shims in the back, and it makes complete sense to me as well, since the front will take most of the weight of the toilet. And can i use a 'white' version of that stuff ? (i'm guessing its the polyseamseal i've seen you mention before) We used something called 'lexel' white for the molding, and were considering it for the tub, but i'll take you pros advice over our guesses any day!

Have you had any jobs like this that require alot of shims? Should i use 2 shims in the very back (facing the wall) or less or more? Kind of just trying to figure out if less is more or more is more in this case. Again some of the shims (mostly along the side) dont even make contact the full width of the shim becuase of the slant of the tile below it..
 

Reach4

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thats my biggest fight is that if i put the shims in place, (and even cut them and all that) then lift the toilet to put the wax on, then set the toilet back down if a single shim has moved a bit (and they did when we lifted the toilet, cuz we did not tape them down, which would be impossible if i pre-cut them right?) then when we go to set the toilet back down a little wobble may return.
I would use that Saniseal. Your situation is right in the middle of the range they suggest for a single ring. The Fluidmaster Better than Wax should work, but what you describe seems to be on the border between two methods that it supports.

Maybe i'm not using enough shims? should i use a lot so there's no much space between them? i'm fairly certain just 3 isn't stopping the wobble, does that mean i'm just not hitting the 'hot points' of where its wobbling?
Other than your time, there is no penalty for using more shims than you need. There is no reason to minimize. Just don't have the shims extending out to where they will be noticeable through the caulk.

We used something called 'lexel' white for the molding
http://www.sashco.com/products/lexel/

Much of the reason that Terry suggests that acrylic type caulk is that it is removable in case you later need to pull the toilet, where silicone is much more tenacious. I don't know how Lexel would compare in that regard. One thing you would already know using that is that the color would match what you have. I don't know how it would be if you ever needed to pull the toilet.
 

Electricview

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Is the Sani-Seal proven to be a an okay device? I looked online and there's a couple of horror stores of that thing flattening out and basically disintegrating.. so I am a bit concerned.
 
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Electricview

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Okay I actually went with the thicker wax ring with black funnel in it.When the toilet went down, it seemed like it was just a bit higher than without any wax ring and i pushed it down hard as i could.. (some of the shims were going in a little deeper than before the wax ring). There was some SLIGHT 'wobble' when testing the shims, but it was very small.. less than a 1/4th of an inch i'd guess.. got the shims in tighter, and it doesnt seem to wobble with me sitting on it and slight rocking left and right (or forward).

I also kind of took an extra step and ran some kite twine down into the area between the tile and flange since there's gaps between the shims. I'm gonna use the toilet for a day and then pull the strings and see if they are wet at all.. If not, I'm hoping that asumes no leak and i can calk it up (asuming i can break the shims clean).
 

Reach4

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If not, I'm hoping that asumes no leak and i can calk it up (asuming i can break the shims clean).
If the cutting does not work as hoped, consider this: insert additional shims by pushing each into the gaps, mark, remove, cut replace. Then do the same process to the other shims.

You may have to cut the thin part of your new shims so that they don't hit stuff as you insert.

I don't see how there would be any wobble with shims properly in place, unless the floor flexes or the shims are rubbery.
 
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Jechow

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After determining the correct location for the shims, can you cut the shims and then tape them to the bottom so that they don't move when you lift and reinstall after putting in place the wax ring?
 
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