Acid Neutralizer drain/vent help needed

[phughes200]

My water has a PH of 6. Any feel for how long it takes timewise for problems to occcur. The pipes are about 5 years old. I would like to add an acid neutralizer since I have copper pipes. Unfortunately, the only place I have room for it would be in a closet under the stairs where my HW heater is located. The only problem is I do not have a drain for the backwash cycle (5 gpm peak for 13 minutes, once a week at 2 a.m.).

I can install a drain with a trap in the crawlspace. What size would I need? Not sure of the venting requirements.

I do have a bathroom that with a sink that is located about 5 feet away. Can I tie into that drain and share the vent?

I also have a kitchen sink about 15 feet away. I could run the drain line into the kitcken sink cabinet and tie into the drain above the p trap. Is this allowed. I believe the drian is 1.5" and feeds into a 3" drain pipe at the exit id the cabinet. There is a dishwasher and garbage disposal. The seller of the unit recommends 3/8 tubing or I could use 1/2 pvc.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

This would fall under "indirect/special waste".

There must be an air gap between the discharge and the receptor. A 2" standpipe with a vented trap would be proper.

If you search for laundry plumbing or standpipe, there are a number of good examples here on the forums.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[phughes200]

Thanks. That got me pointed in the right direction. Based on reading the post here, I have a few inital questions:

Can the air gap be in the crawl space?

If I bring the drain stack up into the closet, can the vent connection be below in the crawl space? in other words, the vent connection to the vent stack will be below the opening to the drain stack?

Is there a limit to how long the vent pipe can travel hortizontally before it reaches a vertical vent stack?

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Not really following your question. Look at pictures of washer standpipes.

The North Carolina plumbing code is based off the International Plumbing Code.

The trap must be above the floor.
The standpipe must extend 18-42" above the weir of the trap.
The trap's vent must rise vertically within 6' of the trap.
The trap arm may not fall more than 1/4" per foot between the trap and it's vent.

 

[phughes200]

For someone that states you didn't follow my questions, you did a amazing job answering them. I am trying to figure out how to hook up a drain hose for an acid neutralizerthat would be located in a closet under my stairs.

I have look at a lot of examples of this and am slowing figuring it out. I was surprised that the trap has to be above the floor since my tub and toliet drains are below the floor. Since this is for an acid neutralizer and not a washing machine, do I still need a 2" drain or could I go smaller. The backwash flow rate would be 5 gpm.

So the trap has to be above the floor by x" minimum. The standpipe has to be a minium of 18" and a maximun of 42" above the weir of the trap. It appears I need an air gap between the discharge tube and the drain opening.

How high does the stand pipe have to be. I assume that it has to be higher that the outlet on acid neutralizer which woulb be about 54" above the floor.

Based on your comment and other post, the only way I can vent this is with an air admittance valves. I just do not have a vent stack within 6'. I know I have to check local codes but my washer drain uses one so I should be good. I really have no other place to put this. Does this valve have to be located above the level of the standpipe opening?

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Tub and shower traps are the only traps that are allowed below the floor.

All of the numbers I mentioned previously are copied right from the code. The water treatment device will discharge through hose or pipe which discharges into the standpipe via and air gap.

2" is preferred because the standpipe may hold a small volume of water as it drains and is the most suitable for rodding if need be in the future. When used in a laundry, the 2" standpipe is required to discharge into a 3" drain per N.C. code. There is no mention of this requirement for a water treatment device.

For your purposes, the vent must rise vertically to a point at least 6" higher than the top of the standpipe.

 

[phughes200]

Thanks.

Based on your response, my current vent for the washing machine violates code since it is at the same level as the standpipe. I also noticed that the standpipe connects to two inch drain pipe that eventually connects to 3 inch drain. The kitchen sink (sink, dishwasher, garbage disposal) also connect to the same two inch line. Not sure how the sink drain is vented yet.

I will post later once I map out the sytem for advice how to hook up the neutrlizer drain.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

You always want an AAV to be well above the flood rim, as if the line backs up, the seal in the AAV will get gunked up and will stick shut or leak sewer gas back into the house. This is why most AAV's under kitchen sinks fail miserably.

6" is the MINIMUM, but in any case the AAV always needs to be accessible for inspection and service.

 

[phughes200]

I got to spend some quality time in my crawl space today studying my drain lines. The sketch below details the general layout. What I found was:





1) The 4" drain to the second floor bath has a 2" line entering it that run horizontally about 10' and has two 2" lines entering from the floors above. I believe one is a vent line that goes to a roof vent. The other I believe is a drain for the second flloor sink. This line continues up to the attic and connects to the first line.

2) The second 4" line runs about 70+' and goes up to a bathroom in a bonus room above the garage. There is another roof vent in the bonus room attic that I believe takes care of this branch.

3) The 3" branch gets interesting. The 2" line running into it has a laundry standpipe with an AAV at the same level as the standpipe. The 2" line from the kitchen (sink, garbage disposal, dishwasher) does not appear to be vented. The 3" branch has a sink and toilet. The next 3" branch has a sink, tub and toilet. I am not sure how these are vented.


My questions are:

1) Can I extend the 2" line (see red above) and add a 2" drain for the neutralizer.

2) Can a run a horizontally vent line for ths drain in the crawlspace to the existing 2" line that goes to the roof.

I hope this isn't too confusing.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I hope the plumbing in your house is better than what you have drawn.

Going by your drawing, I could not recommend attaching the drain ahead of any existing fixtures.

A pipe is not a vent if it has drainage coming through it from another fixture. It is only a vent ABOVE the highest connected fixture. A vent must be vertical until it is at least 6" higher that the flood rim of the highest fixture served. Unless you plan on opening up existing walls to access a vent above the other fixture, the only logical place to connect to an existing vent is in the attic. In some cases it is easier to just run another vent through the roof.

 

[phughes200]

Thank you for the reply. This is a case of easier said then done. This house has an open floor plan with cathredal ceilings and almost no attic space. I really don't think it is going to be possible to tie into a roof vent or to run a new one.

This house was rebuilt during the time when my area was being rapidly built up with large sub-divisions. In other words, all the quality workers were working for the big guys. Nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to the quality of work in this house. Overall, I like the house, I just wish the former owner hire better workers. I heard the electrician was a drunk. The roofers were day laborers off the street. The sheet rockers were hacks. Why would the plumblers be any different. Everything was inspected. Not sure if that did any good. With the amount of construction going on, I wonder how carefully they looked.

However, I do know the 2nd floor baths are vented properly. I suspect that the first floor baths (at least the sinks) have vents tied to the roof vent. I just can prove it without opening walls. I will try to verify if either of the two vertical lines in the crawlspace are vents or drains. Since I know where everything drains except for one sink, at least one of these should be a vent.

Based on you post (and my own research), the only way to vent this appears to be with an AAV. Not my first choice but I don't see another way yet. As for the drain, what would you recommend?

Also, I am curious. Assuming one of the lines is a vent, why did they do it? It is not 6" above any flood plane.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

It might be the way I am interpreting your drawing.

The only vent I would expect to find in a crawlspace would be a vertical riser protecting a tub or shower trap, which you could not connect to down in the crawl.

I would look for the easiest place to cut a wye into one of the 3" or 4" lines downstream of other fixtures. If the AAV is the only reasonable solution, so be it. It will keep the trap from being siphoned, and that is what you are looking for.

 

[phughes200]

Thanks.

When I find out more I will post again.

If the vent line is protecting a first floor tub then why would it go into the crawlspace? No sense losing sleep until I verify it is not a drain.

Can I tie into any 3" line including the branches that service the bathrooms? By "down stream" do you mean the the new wye should be the first wye on the branch? For example "between the main 3" and the tub" or "between the main 3" and sink" or "between the main 3" and the 2" line". By main 3" lime I mean the 3" line that runs parallel to the 2 4" lines. Any reason why?

Unfortunately this area is crowded with AC ducts and support columns.

 

[Smooky]

I recommend putting the system under the house in the crawl space. This type of system is very small. It is only about a 12 inch diameter tank and only about 40 inches tall. You will need an electrical outlet and a light is nice. Put it just inside and dig down deep enough so that everything fits under the floor joist. I would not connect the drain to the septic system. I might would if I was on city sewer. Just run the drain line from the acid nutrilizer straight out to the ditch or out in the woods etc, then you don't need a vent . Also every year you will have to clean out the tank and re-fill it. It is just better if all that stuff is outside and you don’t have to be home if someone comes to do service. They also make a bit of noise when they start backwashing.

If you are drilling the well how do you know what the pH is already?

 

[Cacher_Chick]

If the vent line is protecting a first floor tub then why would it go into the crawlspace?

A bath or a shower is trapped under the floor (in the crawlspace), and every trap must have a vent to prevent siphoning.

Your drawing leaves me to believe that you have fixtures which have un-vented traps. It might be that your drawing is incorrect, or it might be that your plumbing is not installed in a way that would pass today's standards.

I do not recommend adding a drain connection that will flow past any existing fixture which is not properly vented, as it may siphon the fixture's trap.

I do not agree with Smooky, as this is not greywater and it is not permitted to be dumped onto the ground.
It also has the potential to kill the plants, trees, and anything else living where is is dumped.

 

[phughes200]

Smokey,

You have some interesting ideas. Someone else mentioned partially burying the tank but I didn't think they were serious. Does not sound like a fun job. My crawlspace has a dirt floor and is roughly 34" high. I do my own servive and don't look forward to filling the tank every year. In this location, I could easly tie into the house rain gutter drain. Unfortunately these drains go directly to Lake Norman. Not sure if I am allow to do that. If I bury it deep enough, I might be able to install a standpipe with the proper vent (most likely a AAV). Not real fond of not being able to visually check the tank for leaks/damage. My last resin tank start to delaminate after a couple years.

You are correct that I don't know if I need this yet. However, my old well (2" with a jet pump) yielded water with a PH of 6.4. I have been getting a lot of blue stains on my fixture. My nieghbor with a 325' well (mine is 405') also needed one. The person next to him has a 2" well tested at 6.2. Although I am deeper than these two, I suspect I will end up in the same range.

 

[phughes200]

cacher_chick

I don't know of is legal to drain this to the ground. Since this is not a water softner, the backflush would consist of partically treat water. It would be the same water that I would be drinking after the water is fully treated. It maybe a little less acidic than the ground water. The purpose of the backwash is to prevent the media from compacting and maybe washing out any trapped sediment. The cycle uses about 60 gallons of water over a period of 13 minutes. This happens about once a week. Now if this was a water softner, then that is whole different issue.

Based on the following diagram:


You are recommending locations 1, 2, and 8 if I understand you. Any others that would work?

Thanks.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I would not consider draining any indirect waste onto the ground unless it were specifically allowed by local code.

One of the locations you have pointed out would be my preference.

Off topic, but if I didn't have a full basement for my mechanicals, I would much prefer to have a well house rather that put anything in a crawl space. I've been in a number of cabins that had a lean-to on the side of the house for the well pump and treatment equipment.

 

[Smooky]

I did not say to bury the tank. Just dig out an area so it can fit under the floor joist. Remember you will have to take it out to dump out the old media and refill it every year. Just dig out enough to be able to get it in and out without too much trouble. If you have 34 inches of height, that is not to bad. The tank and the control unit on top are around 43 inches tall plus you need several extra inches so you can move it and tilt it over. Also you need room to connect the pipes. You would need to dig out about 12-16 inches. It is easily done with a short shovel and put the dirt into a bucket and take it out.

When the neutralizer tank back washes, clean water flows through the media. The media looks like sand and contains calcium carbonate. This is not toxic. Calcium carbonate also known as limestone is natural occurring in rock formations. Clean water going through ground up rocks is not sewage. It is ok to run it out on the ground or to a ditch. Normally when the system is not backwashing the water supply goes through the tank filled with media and that is the water that you will be drinking. It is ok for drinking water to be discharged on the ground the same as if you are irrigating the lawn.

http://www.allcleanwater.com

 

[phughes200]

Smooky

The media has to be dumped and replaced every year? Why? I thought that one of the benifits of backflushing was not having to "dump and replace" due to backflushing perventing channeling.

Should I be looking at a upflow non-backflushing unit instead? Seems simpler. The argument seems to be that there is a greater chance of channeling with that set up. Both sides have thier supporters. Hard to tell what to believe. The engineer in me says backflusher would be superior but is it needed? However the KISS argument holds if the non-backflushing works.

I agree about draining to the lawn but I am not sure the town/county does. Like you said it is drinking water that is being drained.