About to install softener and water filters

[BobbytheBus]

I just got a softener with a Clack valve thanks to the help of some of the cool posters on this forum. Im about to set everything up and just wanted to know if what I'm doing is correct.

I'm going to start with a big blue 4.5x10 with a 25 micron sediment filter to only catch the bigger stuff and not drop too much pressure off the bat. 3 Shut off valves to allow me to bypass the filter when necessary. Next in line is the softener. I then have a couple filters in 4.5x20 big blue that I got to help address issues from a water report. My first question is should I have another sediment filter after the softener that is 5 micron before these two filters or is the 25 micron enough? I see online some people have a second sediment filter after the softener to catch the smaller stuff. Also 3 shut off valves to allow me to bypass these when necessary. I got a 5x4 foot 3/4 inch thick high quality plywood that I'm using 3 inch deck screws to put on the wall to help mount all these filters. With the thickness of the water filter wall mount plates I'm thinking 3/4 inch wood screws won't reach through the plywood. I was told these filters get heavy. Will 4 of these 3/4 inch wood screws hold them up?

The well pressure tops at 55psi. Since it doesn't go higher I shouldn't need a pressure reducer valve to protect the filters or could I still get spikes if something fails?

Last question I have is the softener Drain line. Can it go 30-35 feet and be 8.5 feet from ground. It is about 5 feet higher than the hookup from the softener. I can reposition and run the water line further down so it's closer to where I have to drain the softener but was hoping to avoid that.

 

[Bannerman]

I then have a couple filters in 4.5x20 big blue that I got to help address issues from a water report.

What has the water report identified that you think cartridge filters will address?

Water treatment is usually performed prior to a softener so the softener will usually be the final treatment device. If you plan to use a UV lamp, that will be the final device before the home fixtures and so a 5-micron filter will often be utilized directly before the UV.

Will 4 of these 3/4 inch wood screws hold them up?

Fasteners commonly used for hanging BB filters are 3/8" hex head lag screws.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Fasteners commonly used for hanging BB filters are 3/8" hex head lag screws.

Yes, and if that is thin material you are hanging from, they expect you to use 5/16 x 1. I did not know that when I did mine, and tapped the filter heads, and used machine screws. The lag screws/bolts would have been much easier.

 

[BobbytheBus]

What has the water report identified that you think cartridge filters will address?

Water treatment is usually performed prior to a softener so the softener will usually be the final treatment device. If you plan to use a UV lamp, that will be the final device before the home fixtures and so a 5-micron filter will often be utilized directly before the UV.


Fasteners commonly used for hanging BB filters are 3/8" hex head lag screws.

Thank you for the tips. I'll use the

What has the water report identified that you think cartridge filters will address?

Water treatment is usually performed prior to a softener so the softener will usually be the final treatment device. If you plan to use a UV lamp, that will be the final device before the home fixtures and so a 5-micron filter will often be utilized directly before the UV.


Fasteners commonly used for hanging BB filters are 3/8" hex head lag screws.

Thank you for the tips. I had seen people say to place all the filters before and some say to only place the sediment filter before and the rest after the softener which is why I was uncertain. Is placing all the filters before the softener something all the knowledgeable ppl would agree on or is there debate on that?

 

[BobbytheBus]

Yes, and if that is thin material you are hanging from, they expect you to use 5/16 x 1. I did not know that when I did mine, and tapped the filter heads, and used machine screws. The lag screws/bolts would have been much easier.

If the plywood is 3/4 is the 5/16x1 inch going to be too long?

 

[Bannerman]

Is placing all the filters before the softener something all the knowledgeable ppl would agree on or is there debate on that?

That will depend on the intended purpose for the filters which is why I asked:

What has the water report identified that you think cartridge filters will address?

 

[Bannerman]

If the plywood is 3/4 is the 5/16x1 inch going to be too long?

In consideration of the thickness of a BB bracket, and in adding a flat washer below the hex head, while a 1" lag screw will protrude through a 3/4" plywood board, it will not protrude a large distance. With ensuring the screw extends through the plywood, the most aggressive threads will be biting into the plywood as the tapered tip will not offer much holding power.

 

[Reach4]

Thank you for the tips. I had seen people say to place all the filters before and some say to only place the sediment filter before and the rest after the softener which is why I was uncertain. Is placing all the filters before the softener something all the knowledgeable ppl would agree on or is there debate on that?

Knowledgeable people have mixed thoughts, IMO.

One before and one after gives the best of both. Mine are before, but after has its merits including catching any resin pieces that might come out.

I keep a spare o-ring on hand. If you change a cartridge and cannot get the o-ring back into the housing, your water system would be out of action-- unless you have a bypass. While I don't have a regular 3-valve bypass for my filter housings, I do have two valves, and I can bypass the isolated filters with a potable water hose. Keeping spare o-rings has done the job so far.

I suggest both good PTFE tape and pipe sealant on the threads when you connect. Do have a tube of suitable NSF approved silicone lube to very lightly lube the o-ring. I have a 5.3 ounce tube of Molykote 111, but https://www.danco.com/product/0-5-oz-silicone-faucet-grease/ Danco 88693 will last for a good while. Do remember that a 20x4.5 sump (the blue part) is heavy when full of water, especially if you are trying to hold that sump at arms length. Do expect to spill a bit. Do avoid cross-threading, by turning CCW until you feel the thread drop, and then go CW. Do have a wrench for removal, but for putting in the new filter element, go hand tight, or maybe a light torque addition from the wrench. Do release pressure before attempting to remove the sump.

 

[Gsmith22]

bannerman has hit the problem square on the head: what is the purpose of the filter? If the OP doesn't know what the filter is for, than its hard to understand why they would be included. Water from different sources is not identical. You next door neighbor may require one system while you require a different system. At best, its a waste of money to copy someone else's system. At worst, you could be missing a problem copying someone else's system.

Understand there are two things people are generally trying to remove from water - things dissolved in it (ie compounds that disassociate and form ionic bonds with the water such as Calcium Carbonate CaCO3) and things that do not dissolve in water but are transported with the water and aren't great to drink (ie sediment). Dissolved compounds are generally the ones that harm or may produce unsatisfactory water for drinking. No "filter" is going to remove dissolved compounds. Only ion exchanges, catalytic carbon, or RO will do that. Filters remove sediment. Some sediment you can see because of how large it is (ie sand) and some you can't because of how fine it is (ie clay or silt). Running through multiple filters with finer mesh can remove finer and finer sediment if that is the problem you are trying to solve. Most will tell you that the BB filters can't handle whole house volumes of water but obviously someone is buying these things and doing okay.

"I then have a couple filters in 4.5x20 big blue that I got to help address issues from a water report." Sediment typically isn't in water reports. Dissolved compounds are in water reports so what is it that you are trying to remove with these BB filters?

 

[BobbytheBus]

That will depend on t

That will depend on the intended purpose for the filters which is why I asked:

The place I bought the softener from said that the test came back without anything that would do damage to the softener. There were some things that were a little on the higher end that I'm going to use a carbon filter for and thought I would also put another sediment filter after the softener to catch anything.

 

[BobbytheBus]

That will depend on the intended purpose for the filters which is why I asked:

I haven't figured out this forum yet with replies so this might be a double post.

There was iron but I have something in the softener to address that. Other then that there wasn't anything in the water report that could do damage. At least that's what the guy said who sold me the softener. there were some things that were little higher that I'm putting carbon filter in for peace of mind. I also though to put a sediment filter after the softener to catch anything?

thank you for the replies and helping me.

 

[BobbytheBus]

In consideration of the thickness of a BB bracket, and in adding a flat washer below the hex head, while a 1" lag screw will protrude through a 3/4" plywood board, it will not protrude a large distance. With ensuring the screw extends through the plywood, the most aggressive threads will be biting into the plywood as the tapered tip will not offer much holding power.

Thank you again. That's a big help to know exactly what I need.

 

[BobbytheBus]

Knowledgeable people have mixed thoughts, IMO.

One before and one after gives the best of both. Mine are before, but after has its merits including catching any resin pieces that might come out.

I keep a spare o-ring on hand. If you change a cartridge and cannot get the o-ring back into the housing, your water system would be out of action-- unless you have a bypass. While I don't have a regular 3-valve bypass for my filter housings, I do have two valves, and I can bypass the isolated filters with a potable water hose. Keeping spare o-rings has done the job so far.

I suggest both good PTFE tape and pipe sealant on the threads when you connect. Do have a tube of suitable NSF approved silicone lube to very lightly lube the o-ring. I have a 5.3 ounce tube of Molykote 111, but https://www.danco.com/product/0-5-oz-silicone-faucet-grease/ Danco 88693 will last for a good while. Do remember that a 20x4.5 sump (the blue part) is heavy when full of water, especially if you are trying to hold that sump at arms length. Do expect to spill a bit. Do avoid cross-threading, by turning CCW until you feel the thread drop, and then go CW. Do have a wrench for removal, but for putting in the new filter element, go hand tight, or maybe a light torque addition from the wrench. Do release pressure before attempting to remove the sump.

You have helped me on a lot of my questions. Thank you. This is all very good stuff and that was the reason I thought to use the sediment after along with anything else that might slip through.

Sounds like a bucket directly under the filters is needed when changing them out.

The place I bought the big blues from over tightened them so I had my first experience with opening them up already from when they are over tightened.

 

[BobbytheBus]

bannerman has hit the problem square on the head: what is the purpose of the filter? If the OP doesn't know what the filter is for, than its hard to understand why they would be included. Water from different sources is not identical. You next door neighbor may require one system while you require a different system. At best, its a waste of money to copy someone else's system. At worst, you could be missing a problem copying someone else's system.

Understand there are two things people are generally trying to remove from water - things dissolved in it (ie compounds that disassociate and form ionic bonds with the water such as Calcium Carbonate CaCO3) and things that do not dissolve in water but are transported with the water and aren't great to drink (ie sediment). Dissolved compounds are generally the ones that harm or may produce unsatisfactory water for drinking. No "filter" is going to remove dissolved compounds. Only ion exchanges, catalytic carbon, or RO will do that. Filters remove sediment. Some sediment you can see because of how large it is (ie sand) and some you can't because of how fine it is (ie clay or silt). Running through multiple filters with finer mesh can remove finer and finer sediment if that is the problem you are trying to solve. Most will tell you that the BB filters can't handle whole house volumes of water but obviously someone is buying these things and doing okay.

"I then have a couple filters in 4.5x20 big blue that I got to help address issues from a water report." Sediment typically isn't in water reports. Dissolved compounds are in water reports so what is it that you are trying to remove with these BB filters?

So do you consider the filters to be a waste of money and just go with a RO system?

 

[Gsmith22]

So do you consider the filters to be a waste of money and just go with a RO system?

No, sediment filters aren't a waste of money if in fact you have lots of sediment and that is what you want to remove. Ion exchange and carbon perfectly fine for lots of things and there are other medias out there too without having to resort directly to RO.

Lets spit ball here. Assuming you have lots of sediment in various micron ranges, then it is common to put in several sediment filters to remove various gradations of sediment. If all the sediment is 5 micron, then a 100, 50, and 20 micron filter ahead of the 5 micron filter isn't going to catch anything. It all the sediment is 20 micron, then the 5 micron isn't going to catch anything either. It depends on what the well is drilled into. Usually the first sediment filter is recommended to be a spin down type in the 100 micron range (catches big sand like particles) where a screen is incorporated that just gets washed off with no filter cartridge to change out. I would recommend that on everyone's system, city or well. Then what sediment filters come next (if any) depends on what sediment is in the water. You could go nuts and put a 50, 20, and 5 micron but the usefulness of that will depend on your water and you will get pressure drop through each of these so there are downsides too. You would have to tell us what is in the water to determine if this is needed, would actually help anything, or is a complete waste.

Iron comes in multiple flavors - ferrous iron which is dissolved in the water with the water being clear or feric iron which forms little rust particles and the water may take on an orangish hue (sediment can cause this too so be careful). If you were told the softener can handle the iron (which may be really bad advice but I digress) then you probably have ferrous iron. Typically you only treat ferrous iron using a softener with extremely low levels. Post your water report so others on here can help you determine if your level is "extremely low". It usually isn't low enough to go the softener route. Ferric iron is already "rusted" so it acts like sediment and can be filtered out like sediment. The proper way to treat ferrous iron is to oxidize it making it ferric to turn it into "sediment". Oxidation of ferrous iron can take on several forms but the most common are injecting chlorine, air or other chemicals to convert ferrous into ferric.

I would post the water report so people can give you sound advice.

 

[Bannerman]

You mention iron. Ferrous iron will be dissolved in the water and filtration alone will not remove it. While a softener can be utilized to remove a small amount of ferrous iron, it is not an efficient method and the softener will require frequent regeneration and ongoing acid treatments to remove iron buildup from the resin granules.

To remove iron will usually require the Ferrous iron to be oxidized to a Ferric state so the resulting iron solids (rust) may be removed by precipitation or filtered out through filter media. Suitable oxidants include chlorine, ozone, hydrogen peroxide or air. Elimination of iron solids from filter media will require frequent backwashing as a cartridge filter will typically become blocked with debris which will quickly reduce the flow rate through the filter.

 

[BobbytheBus]

No, sediment filters aren't a waste of money if in fact you have lots of sediment and that is what you want to remove. Ion exchange and carbon perfectly fine for lots of things and there are other medias out there too without having to resort directly to RO.

Lets spit ball here. Assuming you have lots of sediment in various micron ranges, then it is common to put in several sediment filters to remove various gradations of sediment. If all the sediment is 5 micron, then a 100, 50, and 20 micron filter ahead of the 5 micron filter isn't going to catch anything. It all the sediment is 20 micron, then the 5 micron isn't going to catch anything either. It depends on what the well is drilled into. Usually the first sediment filter is recommended to be a spin down type in the 100 micron range (catches big sand like particles) where a screen is incorporated that just gets washed off with no filter cartridge to change out. I would recommend that on everyone's system, city or well. Then what sediment filters come next (if any) depends on what sediment is in the water. You could go nuts and put a 50, 20, and 5 micron but the usefulness of that will depend on your water and you will get pressure drop through each of these so there are downsides too. You would have to tell us what is in the water to determine if this is needed, would actually help anything, or is a complete waste.

Iron comes in multiple flavors - ferrous iron which is dissolved in the water with the water being clear or feric iron which forms little rust particles and the water may take on an orangish hue (sediment can cause this too so be careful). If you were told the softener can handle the iron (which may be really bad advice but I digress) then you probably have ferrous iron. Typically you only treat ferrous iron using a softener with extremely low levels. Post your water report so others on here can help you determine if your level is "extremely low". It usually isn't low enough to go the softener route. Ferric iron is already "rusted" so it acts like sediment and can be filtered out like sediment. The proper way to treat ferrous iron is to oxidize it making it ferric to turn it into "sediment". Oxidation of ferrous iron can take on several forms but the most common are injecting chlorine, air or other chemicals to convert ferrous into ferric.

I would post the water report so people can give you sound advice.

I'll try to get a copy. The place I bought the softener from went over it but I don't have a copy. Does a res-up feeder/cleaner help against iron buildup?

 

[Reach4]

No, sediment filters aren't a waste of money if in fact you have lots of sediment and that is what you want to remove. Ion exchange and carbon perfectly fine for lots of things and there are other medias out there too without having to resort directly to RO.

Agree. I would suggest a sediment filter, even for city water. A filter on city water should last a long time.

A filter not only filters, but serves as a QC device. If the filter catches nothing visible, you know the incoming water was pretty clean. An RO filter will have little cartridge filters on the front end too.

 

[BobbytheBus]

You mention iron. Ferrous iron will be dissolved in the water and filtration alone will not remove it. While a softener can be utilized to remove a small amount of ferrous iron, it is not an efficient method and the softener will require frequent regeneration and ongoing acid treatments to remove iron buildup from the resin granules.

To remove iron will usually require the Ferrous iron to be oxidized to a Ferric state so the resulting iron solids (rust) may be removed by precipitation or filtered out through filter media. Suitable oxidants include chlorine, ozone, hydrogen peroxide or air. Elimination of iron solids from filter media will require frequent backwashing as a cartridge filter will typically become blocked with debris which will quickly reduce the flow rate through the filter.

I see there's a lot to know when it comes to water treatment. I'm slowly realizing I have no clue what I'm setting up.

 

[BobbytheBus]

Agree. I would suggest a sediment filter, even for city water. A filter on city water should last a long time.

A filter not only filters, but serves as a QC device. If the filter catches nothing visible, you know the incoming water was pretty clean. An RO filter will have little cartridge filters on the front end too.

I think my rough plan is to follow through with the sediment filters on both ends. Put a Small RO under the kitchen sink for drinking water and then run a report to find out exactly how much the iron was in the water, will take sample direct from well tank, and figure out if it really does need treatment. If it does then I'll have to figure out the correct way to handle the iron and add it into the configuration.