A very low volume well , adding a storage tank (?) Novice!

[Work4latte]

Hi, first time person here. I've been reading lots of information, and a lot of it is very helpful. My well has been slowly losing output over the past 10 years or so. Originally, I think it pulled about 8gpm, which is really great for my area. As of last summer, i think it will pull maybe 1gpm, and that doesn't seem to be constant. I had a well guy come out and check the pump, and replace it - no improvement.
So, i'm working on putting in a 1500g storage tank. The advice here on how the water will be pumped from the tank into the house is very good, and i think i understand what will be needed for that (csv and a jet pump, with a very small tank, right?)
The part i haven't figured out is how we're going to get the water into the tank, and if our filters need to go before the tank or after.
First, the filters: Kinetico water softener is currently being used to remove a lot of iron in the water. There's enough iron that it plugs up the head every 3-4 years and i have to get it rebuilt. I think i want to add an air-oxidizer iron filter before the water softener to see if that makes it easier.

If i put the filters before the storage tank, the tank will stay nice and clean and i won't have to get the iron sediment out of the bottom every few years (major plus for me) but i have to be sure that the pre-storage environment supports the filters - especially that there is enough water available for their backflush cycles.
After the storage tank the backflush issue is replaced with just cleaning that tank every few years, and the work of replumbing, which shouldn't be too bad.

Either way with the filters, the tank will need to have not more than 1/2 gal / minute flow to fill it. More than that doesn't guarantee that the pump won't try to go when there's no water - which pops the circuit breaker (currently happens whenever we try to do two things - run the dishwasher & flush the toilet, for example)

So, the question is, what sort of setup would be best for filling that tank? What should i be considering about filters before/after the tank?

and of course, being a novice, am i just barking up the wrong tree completely?

 

[McconnellPlumbing]

Why not replace, redrill, or deepen the well itself if a new pump only brings in 1 gpm instead of the original 8 gpm?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Work4latte]

Why not replace, redrill, or deepen the well itself if a new pump only brings in 1 gpm instead of the original 8 gpm?

the issue isn't the pump, it's the well itself. Wells in our area are all considered 'groundwater wells' - under 100ft. The only exceptions are artesian, which are 1k or more, and a whole different animal. My well is 80ft , currently, and the advice of local drillers is that going deeper is not likely to help. I've been told that there's a possibility that clearing out the bottom of the well (screens?) *might* improve the situation, but it's a gamble. I was told that the only sure way to improve things is to add water storage. It's pretty common to need that, around here. Drilling a new well is space-restricted - my lot is not big enough to move the well far enough to hit a new aquifer.

 

[McconnellPlumbing]

At the bottom of your casing string is a vertical section of slits for the water to enter the inside of the well pipe. Around here a little "specific sized" pebbles are dropped down the well bore. Then the casing string is lowered into the well bore and tags bottom. Then more pebbles are dropped around the outside of the casing to fill the space/gap between the casing and the bored hole, the annulus. The pebbles serve to keep the bored hole from collapsing around the casing. The pebbles also serve as a conduit for the water to get to the slits in the casing slits. The well guys will move/shake the casing to try to insure all the pebbles end up on the bottom section of the well pipe. Sometimes the pebbles don't go all the way to bottom, they will bridge off. That will leave some of the casing slits without pebbles between the pipe and well bore. Then the dirt/sand from the well bore can collapse and slough off and plug up some of the slits, resulting in restricted water flow to the casing slits. When the slits are partially restricted the water velocity through the slits that are still open speeds up trying to meet the pumps demand. It can create a lot of turbidity. This can cause cloudy water and sand to get sucked up and sent down the water system. It can also mean the silt and sand in the well bore can settle down to the bottom of the well casing and fill up from the bottom to cover the slits as well. The bottom line is the outflow from the well can be reduced if the water can't get through enough slits in the bottom of the well pipe to replenish the water being pumped out. Sometimes the owner just has to wait for the well bore to replenish itself before pumping some more. One option is to blow the well. A huge air compressor hose is lowered into the well and high pressure air is used to blow the backside of the well casing up into the air above ground, recreating/cleaning the well bore. Its a mess. Then new pebbles are dropped down the "new annulus". Hopefully all the way to bottom so the well bore doesn't collapse around the casing pipe again and clog the slits.

 

[Reach4]

Tell us about the existing well. Diameter? Pitless or well seal? Steel casing or PVC?

How high is the static water level (the water height when you are not pumping)?

A term you might search on is rejuvenating a well.

 

[Valveman]

You can actually use the storage tank as part of the treatment if you want. Adding a spray nozzle that will fill the tank at 1-2 GPM while spraying in from the top will aerate the water as a first part of the treatment. The sludge would fall to the bottom of the tank, so you may not want to to that.

If so, the treatment system will go on the booster/jet pump feeding the house. Restricting the flow from the well pump to 1-2 GPM with a valve and using a Cycle Sensor to protect the pump from running dry would be a good option.

All filters and treatments should be after the CSV/pressure tank on the line going to the house.

There are ways to treat the water before it goes into the storage tank, but you need to figure out a way to backflush with the limited water from the well pump, like using the booster pump water to flush with.

 

[Work4latte]

thank you for the information on how the well is constructed. It's good to have a better understanding of that. Given how the water plugs up the Kinetico head with iron deposits, it would be reasonable to expect the same thing to be happening at the bottom of the well. Given that it seems like the compressor-treatment would be a good idea. The well was drilled in the early 70's, and started losing volume after the 6.8 earthquake here in 2001.

in the drawing above, the well goes directly to the storage tank without anything inbetween. In a scenario like this, i assume you adjust the output of the well to be within it's capacity, and just switch the pump based on the water level of the storage tank? if i did that, it would be easiest to set it so the well would come on about once a day, and run for 12 hrs or more at time. Is that a reasonable expectation of my well pump? A cycle sensor (i'm reading on the internet!) will shut the pump down if it's dry - but how do i know it's stopped, and what needs to be done to start it? Can i set it to stop for a while and then start up again?

it's a six inch well casing, metal, that sticks out of the ground. I don't know what pitless means. The well isn't sealed, there is a cap though. it just sits on top of the casing.
I don't know what the static water level is. I would guess that the pump guy measured it when he was here - but i didn't get a chance to talk to him. As it turned out my husband broke his leg falling off the ladder that day, opening the roof of the pump house for the guy to come do the pump. Pretty much everything else about the day is just lost in the fog of ambulance rides and surgery and hospital waiting rooms. But it sounds like i'm going to be talking to some well folks again soon, and i'll be sure to find all that out.

the thing with the backflush issue is that all the iron filters i look at have one input and one output. If i backflush from a different source, how do i set that up? is there such a thing as an electric switched valve or something that lets it use well water usually but will switch it to house water when the flush cycle starts? Is it possible to get into the electronics of the filter to hook that up? or is there another way to do it?

 

[Reach4]

it's a six inch well casing, metal, that sticks out of the ground. I don't know what pitless means. The well isn't sealed, there is a cap though. it just sits on top of the casing.
So the pipe does not come in thru the top. In that case, you have a pitless adapter.

So you can lift the cap.
Cleaning sediment out of a well can be done a couple of ways. The fast way is with a big engine-driven compressor. If the water in the well is high enough, you might be able to use an air lift pump. That would be the slow DIY way.

If the screen/holes at the bottom of the casing are clogged/rusted up, there are pellets to drop down the well to dissolve out the rust and limed up deposits.

 

[Work4latte]

oh, the pipe goes in right through the center of the cap, and goes straight down to the pump. Taking off the cap completely only happens when they pull the pump out, as it's attached at the bottom. I can push it aside enough to open a crack, but that's it. Pretty sure i'd have to have a professional come do the air compressor thing.

 

[Reach4]

oh, the pipe goes in right through the center of the cap, and goes straight down to the pump.

In that case you have a well cap, and no pitless. The pump and down pipe are held up by the fitting that sits atop the well cap.

NuWell 100 Pelletized Well Cleaner are pellets to dissolve blockage in the well screen at the bottom. There are bigger containers and other variations.



What keeps your well pipes from freezing?

 

[Work4latte]

Everything is inside the pump house, which has a removable roof (assuming you're careful on the ladder!) for well access/servicing. There's power out there so on the coldest nights we just put up a 500w light and close the door. We are in a very temperate climate, so this is only needed maybe 1wk a year. Typical winter weather here is 38F , and raining. The line to the house is underground. The outside hose bibs are on risers that drain back into the ground when they're shut off, so they never freeze either.

Does the pump need to be out of the well to use the well cleaner pellets? seems like that acid might not be the best thing for it?

 

[Valveman]

thank you for the information on how the well is constructed. It's good to have a better understanding of that. Given how the water plugs up the Kinetico head with iron deposits, it would be reasonable to expect the same thing to be happening at the bottom of the well. Given that it seems like the compressor-treatment would be a good idea. The well was drilled in the early 70's, and started losing volume after the 6.8 earthquake here in 2001.

in the drawing above, the well goes directly to the storage tank without anything inbetween. In a scenario like this, i assume you adjust the output of the well to be within it's capacity, and just switch the pump based on the water level of the storage tank? if i did that, it would be easiest to set it so the well would come on about once a day, and run for 12 hrs or more at time. Is that a reasonable expectation of my well pump? A cycle sensor (i'm reading on the internet!) will shut the pump down if it's dry - but how do i know it's stopped, and what needs to be done to start it? Can i set it to stop for a while and then start up again?

it's a six inch well casing, metal, that sticks out of the ground. I don't know what pitless means. The well isn't sealed, there is a cap though. it just sits on top of the casing.
I don't know what the static water level is. I would guess that the pump guy measured it when he was here - but i didn't get a chance to talk to him. As it turned out my husband broke his leg falling off the ladder that day, opening the roof of the pump house for the guy to come do the pump. Pretty much everything else about the day is just lost in the fog of ambulance rides and surgery and hospital waiting rooms. But it sounds like i'm going to be talking to some well folks again soon, and i'll be sure to find all that out.

the thing with the backflush issue is that all the iron filters i look at have one input and one output. If i backflush from a different source, how do i set that up? is there such a thing as an electric switched valve or something that lets it use well water usually but will switch it to house water when the flush cycle starts? Is it possible to get into the electronics of the filter to hook that up? or is there another way to do it?

The Cycle Sensor will shut the pump off when the well is dry, and it turns it back on automatically after 20 minutes or so with button you set for minutes to restart the pump. You don't have to know when the well is dry, it just takes care of it for you. But it does flash DRY on the screen after the well pumps dry and while it is timing the restart delay.

Yes you would have to pull the pump to do much of any kind of well rehab. Just use a ball valve to restrict the flow from the well pump to the storage tank somewhat. Don't need to restrict it much as you just want the pump to run for at least a couple minutes before the Cycle Sensor shuts it off and starts timing the restart.

Sorry for your husbands broken leg. Best to have the well off to the side of the well house and covered with a little box cover that is easy to remove. I always say all the good things about how much longer a Cycle Stop Valve can make a pump last. Now I can add that it may even save people's lives by not having to crawl up on the well house and take the cover off or fix a pump on a day with dangerous weather. I hope he gets better soon!

 

[Work4latte]

what sort of a pressure tank is hooked up to the csv in this setup? Is it a small bladder tank, like the big one we have now, or is it like a "overflow tank" - just a really simple pressure tank?

the wiring shown here has a cycle sensor in line between the power supply and the pressure switch. Right now there's something called a QD Control Box between the power in and the pressure switch. Is this some form of pump protection? I looked at it and looked it up, it seems like it might be a thermal protector? This would assume that the wires would get hot, not fire off the breaker, and flip the thermal protection before the pump was damaged. Is that right? How is a cycle sensor different?

I've been talking to a local well guy, they can come work on the well but there's a lot of prep to do and the well will be off completely for up to a week while they wait for it to settle enough to put a camera in, and then do whatever is needed. So i continue to work on getting the storage going.

 

[Valveman]

what sort of a pressure tank is hooked up to the csv in this setup? Is it a small bladder tank, like the big one we have now, or is it like a "overflow tank" - just a really simple pressure tank?

the wiring shown here has a cycle sensor in line between the power supply and the pressure switch. Right now there's something called a QD Control Box between the power in and the pressure switch. Is this some form of pump protection? I looked at it and looked it up, it seems like it might be a thermal protector? This would assume that the wires would get hot, not fire off the breaker, and flip the thermal protection before the pump was damaged. Is that right? How is a cycle sensor different?

I've been talking to a local well guy, they can come work on the well but there's a lot of prep to do and the well will be off completely for up to a week while they wait for it to settle enough to put a camera in, and then do whatever is needed. So i continue to work on getting the storage going.

The same pressure tank you have will work with the Cycle Stop Valve. But you don't need that big of a tank. Use it if you got it, but if it needs replacing a 4.5 gallon size tank is large enough.

The QD can go on the well pump and is designed to shut the pump off if the well is dry. But a QD won't work on the booster pump with the CSV, as the CSV makes the amps drop more than 25%, which is the limit of the QD. The jet pump or booster from the cistern will either need a Cycle Sensor or a "pump down" float switch at the bottom of the tank to stop the pump if the tank runs dry.

 

[Work4latte]

The same pressure tank you have will work with the Cycle Stop Valve. But you don't need that big of a tank. Use it if you got it, but if it needs replacing a 4.5 gallon size tank is large enough.

The QD can go on the well pump and is designed to shut the pump off if the well is dry. But a QD won't work on the booster pump with the CSV, as the CSV makes the amps drop more than 25%, which is the limit of the QD. The jet pump or booster from the cistern will either need a Cycle Sensor or a "pump down" float switch at the bottom of the tank to stop the pump if the tank runs dry.

so the pressure tank should be a bladder type tank?

yes, i was thinking about a pump down float switch, to make sure that the pump will not come on if the level in the tank gets too low. It seems like a easy and inexpensive solution. I was thinking that if it had a very short throw, it would be actually underwater most of the time though, which seems like it would be hard on the float, so probably it needs to be a long throw, triggered at the right level to turn off the pump when the tank gets low. Right?

 

[Valveman]

Right. It needs enough throw to work properly, but too much throw gets tangled up.

 

[Reach4]

Some recommend the SJE Rhombus float switches.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/pump_in_tank-png.54286/ shows two float switches. The lower one would be in series with the control or power to the pressure pump to keep the pressure pump from pumping if the tank becomes empty. The upper switch would control the well pump.

Flow inducer helps cool the motor, and is very cheap and easy to build.

 

[Work4latte]

yes, i found references to the sje rhombus switches and have ordered the 'pump up' one for filling the tank. I'll get a 'pump down' one for the house pump too. In the drawing it shows the floats having short throws, which would mean that the pump down switch would be mostly underwater, if i did it as drawn. is that ok? the tank itself is wide and not that deep - the max water depth will be 48inches. How long of a throw is recommended?

 

[Work4latte]

Some recommend the SJE Rhombus float switches.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/pump_in_tank-png.54286/ shows two float switches. The lower one would be in series with the control or power to the pressure pump to keep the pressure pump from pumping if the tank becomes empty. The upper switch would control the well pump.

Flow inducer helps cool the motor, and is very cheap and easy to build.

as for the actual pump, i am planning to have it outside the tank. it won't be quite at the level of the bottom of the tank, but will be well below the 'full' level. It looks like folks here like Gould pumps, so i thought i'd look at what they make. It has to push the water 20 ft up and 40 ft out, and deliver at better than 5gpm (a single hard running faucet worth) at that height. It won't be pulling the water more than a couple feet up, at most. I'm planning to set the pressure at 50.

 

[Reach4]

the tank itself is wide and not that deep - the max water depth will be 48inches. How long of a throw is recommended?

That will vary with the switch and how much deadband you want. Some switches are "wide angle" and would use a shorter tether for a given amount of deadband. You want to make that adjustable. How? I am not sure what the best way would be. Tape? Nylon ties?

Pump Switches - SJE Rhombus Control Products

SJE Rhombus wide-angle pump switches directly control pumps from 1/2 HP at 120 VAC up to 3 HP at 250 VAC in non-potable water and sewage applications.

www.sjerhombus.com