A tragic flaw?

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by TonyBagadonutz, Mar 31, 2005.

  1. TonyBagadonutz

    TonyBagadonutz Electrician

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    NJ
    I think my plan is tragically flawed...

    I cannot figure out how to get the venting for the first floor bath tied back into the stack on the second floor (bath). I think this may have to do with the fact that the walls do NOT line up between 1st and 2nd floors...and the 1st flr bath is "active".

    This an "overlay" of the basic layout of the baths (dimensions are not included). The "pink" walls represent the first floor; the "transparent" fixtures represent the 2nd flr; the "red dot" is the stack's location:

    [​IMG]


    The "plan" was to build a stack that looked something like this:
    [​IMG]

    The "problem" is the venting on the left side of the stack (labeled) "2" to sink/shower on 1st flr". It is my belief that this vent line will collide with the waste pipe from the 2nd flr toilet...which is almost "in-line" with the stack. I know I will have to enlarge the width of the stack cavity on the second floor to accomadate those vents down to first floor and I do not have an issue with that. I also know the area about the toilet should be 30" wide (15" each way, off center line, correct?)

    Is there any limit to the number of bends allowed on a vent? I am thinking this is my only option....get the venting for the first floor shower and sink to the joist cavity behind/under the 2nd toilet, and then get it into stack cavity between toilet and sink on 2nd flr. I may be able to increase the useable area here by dropping the sink waste line to a lower dimension and changing it's direction to the stack (it's at 22" OC AFF as per manufac. specs) - maybe under the floor ?

    The only other option I can see, is to turn the 4" double fixture fitting 90° or 45°, and then run the toilet waste line over to it and the shower line also. The closet bend will connect to the stack with a 45° or 22.5°- I hope. The shower waste line may end up being a "straight shot". The concern is the floor joist which were pretty well butchered by the previous home owner's efforts. The joist are not 6x's(5 1/2") or 8x's (7 1/2")...they are 7x's ???. I bought a few 8x's that I will rip off to 7" to beef this floor up.

    Is anyone has any suggestions on how to get this project back on track, it would be greatly appreciated. I do NOT want to "just get it done" - and do it wrong - just to get it done and move forward with the renovation.
     
  2. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

    Joined:
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    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    to vent or not to vent??

    if all else fails, I have used Auto air vents very successfully in situations like this over the years with no complaints from anyone.

    if it wont work any other way, dont kill yourself over it.

    just put an auto air vent to each fixture and you can get by just fine.


    thats what they are made for, they wouldent sell them if they didnt work.

    also, it does not really matter how many bends you put in the vent pipe as long as it has fall back to the stack and condensation cant build up in the line and eventually fill up with water.

    just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2005
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  4. TonyBagadonutz

    TonyBagadonutz Electrician

    Joined:
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    Electrician
    Location:
    NJ
    Thanks MPM,
    I would like to avoid AAV, if possible.
    I know this is "doable" in pipe....and I have the motivation which is the biggest factor.
    Another thought I am tossing around in an additional 4" riser....I haven't begun to consider the connections to/from it, but it may be yet another option.
     
  5. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

    Joined:
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    Sensitivity trainer.. plumber of mens souls
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    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    loop vent or island venting

    [​IMG]

    you could also just install a loop vent (thats what I call it)

    take the vent above the highest fixture then loop back down under the floor and tie it into the main sewer stack somewhere downstream.


    air is air and this works as well as a vent , because the pipe is never totally completely filled with water so their is no chanch of it siphoning itself.

    this is especially true if you are tieing it back into a 4 inch line., their is never going to be that much volume running through it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2005
  6. TonyBagadonutz

    TonyBagadonutz Electrician

    Joined:
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    Electrician
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    Can I use this?

    Can I use either of these in the floor joists to attach to:
    - down, main stack
    - up, main stack
    - left, toilet
    - right shower

    4 Inch TEE, DOUBLE, SANITARY, HUB or 4 Inch DOUBLE, FIXTURE FITTING, HUB.
    Are these fittings "interchangable" in this application?
     

    Attached Files:

  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    fitting

    The cross would only be permitted for a vent connection, not a sanitary one. The double fixture fitting would be acceptable.
     
  8. TonyBagadonutz

    TonyBagadonutz Electrician

    Joined:
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    Electrician
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    A little help on proper fittings?

    Say I have a 4" riser coming up through the floor....

    - Can I put a Tee (or wye?) on it.
    - The vertical will continue straight up through - the sink will drain into it, then venting above 42", shower vent at 96" - then on through roofline
    - On the horizontal outlet can I put a Tee(wye?) ?
    - To the left, a bend - I put a 90°, but might be able to get as low as 22.5° - then the closet bend to an offset closet flange
    - To the right, a 4x2 reducer - I put a 90°, but might be able to get as low as 22.5° - then a 90°, then a tee (up goes to vent, over goes to shower trap, reduced to shower, 2" continues back to vent stack)

    Maybe the picture will help explain what I am trying to convey:




    [​IMG]
     
  9. TonyBagadonutz

    TonyBagadonutz Electrician

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    NJ
    Can I use these...

    Option B:
    Same fixture layout as picture above..

    ...again, coming up through the floor...


    A 4x4x4 Tee:
    - Up connects to sink drain on a 4x4x2 Tee
    - Over, to a 90, to the closet bend and flange
    - Down to a...

    a 4x4x2 wye:

    - left to shower, will need to 45 up out of floor, then 90 over to tub area and 90 up to shower trap/vent.
    - down to "regular" sewer connections


    Is there a difference between a "tee" and a "sanitary tee"?

    (or is the above post "Option A", allowed?)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2005
  10. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    fittings

    There is no difference between a tee and a sanitary tee, unless you are asking about a vent tee which has no "sweep" to the branch. But there is a big difference between a sanitary tee and a combination Y-1/8 bend which is what you would usually have to install for anything but a connection to a vertical pipe. And in a vertical pipe, depending on the application, you may not be permitted to use a combination Y-1/8 bend but would have to use the sanitary tee.
     
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