50 gpg well, 2 sometimes 3 people

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pricebr3

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As much as I am trying to enjoy the learning process of softeners, I'm entering my 3rd full day of non stop researching. I've read numerous threads here but with everyone having varying needs and requirements for their softeners, I'm having a hard time translating this knowledge to what I actually need. My parents need a new softener. Their water has been lab tested and contains the following.

Calcium 210 ppm
Chloride 2449 ppm
Magnesium 79 ppm
Hardness 850 ppm
Iron 2.4 ppm
Sodium 1200

Their water usage is around 150 gallons per day but can be as much as 250+ when entertaining which is a couple times a month.

From most calculators or tools I find, I assume because of their hardness, recommend as large as 2 or 2.5 cuft resin. But this to me seems like such a large unit for just the two of them. I don't want to have any sort of channeling issues if the water usage is not all that much usually and would like to keep the salt cost down as much as possible so trying to keep efficiency up. Likewise, a dedicated iron filter would be prohibitive for cost. Any help I can get here would be very very appreciated.
 

Bannerman

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Removing iron with a softener, will not result in efficient operation no matter which size softener or salt setting is utilized.

Each 1 ppm iron, will consume the equivalent capacity as removing 85 ppm (5 grains per gallon) actual hardness, so in consideration of 850 ppm actual hardness (=~50 grains per gallon), + 12.5 gpg for iron, results in 62.5 gpg hardness. In addition, because hard, iron laden water will be utilized for regeneration, additional capacity will be depleted during each regeneration cycle, so to compensate, the hardness amount will need to be multiplied by 1.3, thereby arriving at a hardness setting of 81 gpg.

With 2 ppl, estimated to utilize 150 gallons/day X 81 gpg = 12,150 grains per day softening load

A softener equipped with 2ft3 resin (64,000 grains total capacity), for efficiency, will be typically programmed to regenerate when 48,000 grains has been depleted. To regenerate 48K grains will require only 16 lbs salt each cycle. FYI, to regenerate all 64K grains each cycle, would require 40 lbs salt (20 lbs per ft3), which would be highly wasteful and inefficient @ only 1,600 grains per lb.

48,000 gr / 12,150 = 3.77 days - 1 day reserve = an estimated regeneration frequency of 2-3 days

A softener equipped with 2.5ft3 resin (80,000 grains total capacity), will be typically programmed to regenerate when 60K grains has been depleted. To regenerate 60K grains will require only 20 lbs salt each cycle.

60,000 gr / 12,150 = 4.93 days - 1 day reserve = an estimated regeneration frequency of 3-4 days.

In addition to the inefficiency due to the iron, the softener will require frequent and ongoing additional maintenance to clean the resin to reduce the amount of iron fouling.

As softeners utilize a process of ion exchange to remove hardness ions (mainly calcium & magnesium), exchanging them with sodium ions, a softener will not remove the sodium which is already in the well water, but will further increase the amount of sodium in the water supplied to the home's fixtures. As such, a Reverse Osmosis system could be added for supplying sodium free water for drinking & cooking.

Although a dedicated iron reduction system prior to the softener would reduce the softening load, a twin tank softener would permit the full amount of capacity regenerated each cycle, to be fully utilized. A twin tank softener utilizes 2 identical resin tank's, with only one tank providing soft water at one time. Once the programmed capacity in the 1st tank is depleted, the alternate tank will immediately come online to supply soft water. As regeneration will not need to be delayed until a specific time, usually during the night when soft water is usually not needed, then no reserve capacity will be required, and regeneration can occur anytime throughout the day without consideration of fractions of days which may or may not be actually utilized with a single tank softener.

One other method to improve salt efficiency somewhat when hardness is excessive, is to utilize 2 softeners in series, each regenerated with different salt settings.

A lower salt setting will increase salt efficiency, but will result in low water quality due to high hardness leakage through the resin. In addition, because the Capacity setting will be low, regeneration will need to be frequent.

When 2 softeners are utilized, the 1st softener would be larger than the 2nd, and would be programmed with a low salt setting. The 1st softener will remove the bulk of hardness and iron, but the outflow will be of low quality due to the amount of hardness leakage through the resin bed.

The 2nd softener will remove the remaining hardness from the 1st softener, and with a higher salt setting programmed, the qualty improving the quality of soft water supplied to fixtures will be improved. Because the 2nd softener will remove substantially less hardness and iron than the 1st, and because the Capacity and salt setting will be higher, the 2nd softener maybe considerably smaller in resin capacity than the 1st, but will require less frequent regeneration.
 
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pricebr3

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Thanks Bannerman for the info. I wasn't previously aware of the need to add a further hardness compensation amount because of the terrible hard iron water being utilized for the regeneration process but that definitely makes sense. I assume there must be a scale used for varying levels of extreme hardness and the 1.3 you suggested is what i would want to use for my particular case?

Is there any reason to worry if I went with a single tank 2ft3 or 2.5ft3 unit as far as the frequency of regenerations? It seems to me that a 2ft3 softener and a 2.5ft3 softener can be utilized in such a way as to get similar salt efficiency, the difference being a 2.5ft3 would be able to go longer between regenerations is this correct? Would one be more efficient than the other when considering a reserve day for recharge times or the potential for a larger unit to also better accommodate the days where family visits increase the days water use quite a bit?

I completely believe that a proper iron filter before the softener would be the most ideal way to address the levels of iron in the water as to not beat up the softener and require additional maintenance to the softener but i honestly don't think I could even mention to my parents the thought of another 1k$+. At least for the moment i feel more comfortable addressing the additional iron issue with just my extra time and some 20$ tubs of iron out. Ideally if I can get to a point where I'm comfortably managing the hardness level, in the future i would love the idea of adding an iron filter to the setup.

I do understand that what seems like the only real way to deal with the excessive amounts of sodium in the water is to just depend on an r/o system at the point of use for drinking water. Is there some other ways to deal with excess sodium throughout the house as to also help with appliance wear and tear from the sodium levels?

I honestly haven't really looked at any twin tank systems as they seemed even more expensive and I didn't really understand the necessity for them as I figured having continuous soft water in their case wasn't a big deal and they would be fine with nightly regens. After doing a little research on them, they seem like there's only pros to them and the cons being the initial cost and extra space needed for the tanks. Are there any other drawbacks? I'm seeing that twin tanks have the ability to regen using soft water produced which would lead me to believe that i wouldn't have to compensate for the excessive hardness using hard water to regen a single tank unit is this correct? How does this work and is it a quality of all twin tanks? Is there potential salt cost savings with a twin tank as you wouldn't have to figure in partial days of un utilized resin capacity or would it be negligible?

Using a 2nd softener in series sounds reasonable enough but initially comes across to me as possibly more complicated than a twin tank system would be and while you're buying two softeners the cost seems like it would be at least as much or more than a twin tank setup while not benefiting from the potential to regen using soft water and would still risk running out of soft water in extreme water use cases.

To give an idea of my expectations I can sorta shamefully admit that before I went down this rabbit hole i was leaning toward just running to the depot and picking up another 500$ 40k cabinet unit and hoping that it would just last them another 15 years of similar performance as it's basically the same unit they got from sears 15 years ago. 500$ is definitely what they'd want to spend and unless i can come up with some very tangible benefits or needs to spend more, it will be a hard sell i think.

A cheapo from depot for 500$ seems like the cheapest choice but likely would not cover all of their hardness needs, at least not at an efficient salt dose or without regenerating every night and therefore costing more in the long run. Is regenerating every night the end of the world? If this unit only last 5 years from extra regens it's still substantially cheaper up front.

A single large capacity tank seems like the next choice and for those I was just eyeing the aquasure tanks at depot as well and currently a 70k grain 2.25ft3 tank can be had for 750$ which also seems relatively cheap but i do not know the quality of these units.

What sort of twin tank setup would you recommend? How many grain capacity would they need? I see there are fleck twin tanks on affordablewater that run about $1400 for 1ft3 tanks. This is definitely on the highest end that i would want to spend but seem like very good units.

Thanks to all in advance. My parents have been in this house for close to 30 years and the water has always been terrible so it's easy enough for them to just stick to what they've been dealing with but boy would it be nice to get their water in even a little better shape.
 

pricebr3

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I'm looking more into a single large unit. Even though my grain capacity may warrant the larger unit, would the flow rate cause issues in a 2ft3 softener when the sfr will likely not often hit even 10 gpm? I'm aware of channeling issues being possible when oversizing softeners but what I've been unable to find is if the frequent regeneration cycles every 2-3 days would help alleviate any potential channeling.

Fine mesh resin for the iron or the size of the unit and frequency of regens along with frequent cleaner use will handle the 2.4ppm iron fine?
 
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Bannerman

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Channelling is of no concern, but frequent regeneration is required to limit iron fouling.

There are parts of the country where softeners are commonly installed as a subscription service. Only a media tank equipped with fully regenerated resin is installed without a regenerating control valve. Those units are typically sized to provide 30-days soft water capacity without regeneration, then every month, the depleted tank is exchanged with an alternate tank which was regenerated at a central facility

Even when a full softener is installed where iron or manganese is not an issue, the usual recommendation will be to install a softener with sufficient capacity while utilizing efficient Capacity and salt settings, to result in regeneration not being required more than 1X per week, to as few as 1X per month.

Because over an extended time period, channelling can occur, when using a larger capacity softener than needed to satisfy the usual soft water consumption requirements where no iron is present, advisable to program the control valve's Days Override setting to 30-days or less (often 28-days), thereby ensuring regeneration will occur 1X per month incase water use is insufficient to cause a regeneration to occur prior to 28 or 30-days.

Fine Mesh resin is softening resin with a smaller than standard granule size. With a greater number of smaller granules comprising each cubic foot of resin, there will be a greater amount of resin surface area for the iron to adhere to.

Every water treatment device will cause some amount of flow restriction which many refer to as 'pressure loss'. Even when the iron content is substantial, Fine Mesh resin is usually not recommended on this forum as the finer, more tightly packed granules typically result in greater flow restriction compared to standard mesh resin.
 

Reach4

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To give an idea of my expectations I can sorta shamefully admit that before I went down this rabbit hole i was leaning toward just running to the depot and picking up another 500$ 40k cabinet unit and hoping that it would just last them another 15 years of similar performance as it's basically the same unit they got from sears 15 years ago.
That is a reasonable action.

You could still add the Iron Out batch treatment thing. The cabinet-type softeners are typically fill-first, which means that the softener only puts water into the brine tank an hour or two before proceeding with the backwash and later cycles.That could cause the IO treatment to be harder in that you want to throw the unit into bypass at the right time during brine draw, so I don't know how that would work out with fill-first.
 
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