1963 copper remodel to ABS-layout help needed

[wwhitney]

2" is fine for venting a shower or a lav, the IPC would allow 1-1/2".

No need to maintain a 3" vent stack, and combining vents to a 3" roof penetration is fine. In cold climates it's best practice or required, the 3" vent is less likely to frost closed. In which case the 3" should extend into the thermal envelope of the building.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Oilhammer]

Both toilets are roughed in now so I can start to see what I have to work with. Ideally, I only have a single 1.5" dry vent coming off of Bath 2 lav. There just isn't much room to branch circuit the 3" copper over to one of the showers. I "can", just difficult. That said, 1.5" doesn't feel adequate for this end of the wet vent.
Here's looking at the mock up from the Master bath looking towards Bath 2. (smallInkedone_L1.jpg)
The second photo is looking from Bath 2 towards the Master. You can see the bath 2 shower connects in just ahead of the cleanout and before the dry vent from the Bath 2 lav.

So...need to confirm a few things in this:
1) A single 1.5" dry vent is adequate for this end ( I still have another dry vent on the far end for the master vanity)
2) Need for a cleanout (ideally below floor) on Bath 2 drain right where it turns 90 to connect to the 3" wet vent.
3) Bath 2 lav drain connection to the 3" flat, or rolled up at least 45 so that the 1.5" part of the wye is about water line.
4) How the heck to connect to a 3" copper pipe. None of the adapters I have found fit copper to ABS.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[wwhitney]

0) Perhaps the earlier posts would address this, but in photo 1 you drew a line between the wall tanks that is part green (drain) and part orange (vent). I took that to mean that there's a lav attached there, which is wet venting everything. In which case your horizontal combo plus LT90 is fine.

However in photo 2 you drew it as orange only, suggesting it's just a dry vent. In that case the dry vent has to come off on the vertical, so you couldn't use a horizontal combo and a LT90. You'd need to roll the combo (or a wye) up at least 45 degrees. A wye rolled up 45 plus a 60 works.

1) The IPC allows a single 1.5" dry vent to wet vent two bathroom groups.

2) If you mean the cleanout shown at the bottom of the second picture, I'm not sure if it is required, but assuming it will be accessible, it seems like a good idea.

3) This may answer my comment (0). For a wet vent, flat (2% slope) is fine on the combo, likely preferred, possibly required.

4) For 2" plastic to 3" copper, Fernco 3006-22 or Mission KC-32. For 3" plastic to 3" copper, Fernco 3007-33 or Mission PK-33.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

oilhammer​

So...need to confirm a few things in this:
1) A single 1.5" dry vent is adequate for this end ( I still have another dry vent on the far end for the master vanity)
2) Need for a cleanout (ideally below floor) on Bath 2 drain right where it turns 90 to connect to the 3" wet vent.
3) Bath 2 lav drain connection to the 3" flat, or rolled up at least 45 so that the 1.5" part of the wye is about water line.
4) How the heck to connect to a 3" copper pipe. None of the adapters I have found fit copper to ABS.


The most easy way to do this is with a simple 3 inch fernco rubber gasket coupling.... grease it up good with
pipe dope and it chould last 30 years or more... They also make a no hub fitting that adapts from old 3 inch copper to 3 inch pvc....

either one will probably last forever... just be sure to secure both sides to the rafters with strapping so they dont
move

also I got dozens of those double cross ideals that you had in your original picture....
With the distance that the toilets are apart and not back to back
, I feel that this cross would have probably would have worked fine...
but its too late now...... lol

These fittings were called ideal crosses and were perfect for most installs we did back in the 80s and 90s.... With the newer toilets they caused trouble when the toilets were literally back to back making one toilet bowls water bob up anddown..


Good luck with your fun project

 

[Jeff H Young]

oilhammer​

So...need to confirm a few things in this:
1) A single 1.5" dry vent is adequate for this end ( I still have another dry vent on the far end for the master vanity)
2) Need for a cleanout (ideally below floor) on Bath 2 drain right where it turns 90 to connect to the 3" wet vent.
3) Bath 2 lav drain connection to the 3" flat, or rolled up at least 45 so that the 1.5" part of the wye is about water line.
4) How the heck to connect to a 3" copper pipe. None of the adapters I have found fit copper to ABS.


The most easy way to do this is with a simple 3 inch fernco rubber gasket coupling.... grease it up good with
pipe dope and it chould last 30 years or more... They also make a no hub fitting that adapts from old 3 inch copper to 3 inch pvc....

either one will probably last forever... just be sure to secure both sides to the rafters with strapping so they dont
move

also I got dozens of those double cross ideals that you had in your original picture....
With the distance that the toilets are apart and not back to back
, I feel that this cross would have probably would have worked fine...
but its too late now...... lol

View attachment 81878 These fittings were called ideal crosses and were perfect for most installs we did back in the 80s and 90s.... With the newer toilets they caused trouble when the toilets were literally back to back making one toilet bowls water bob up anddown..


Good luck with your fun project

I've never used an ideal cross have seen them in catalogs perhaps a time or 2 in person but never installed in field Just one of those things I suppose meets UPC but I just never see them maybe in condo or apt but our single family homes are so cut up nothings ever that easy. I'm assuming those would be limited to use with todays toilets is why you got a grip leftover?
Is ABS still king in Indiana we still use it mainly here

 

[Oilhammer]

0) Perhaps the earlier posts would address this, but in photo 1 you drew a line between the wall tanks that is part green (drain) and part orange (vent). I took that to mean that there's a lav attached there, which is wet venting everything. In which case your horizontal combo plus LT90 is fine.

However in photo 2 you drew it as orange only, suggesting it's just a dry vent. In that case the dry vent has to come off on the vertical, so you couldn't use a horizontal combo and a LT90. You'd need to roll the combo (or a wye) up at least 45 degrees. A wye rolled up 45 plus a 60 works.

1) The IPC allows a single 1.5" dry vent to wet vent two bathroom groups.

2) If you mean the cleanout shown at the bottom of the second picture, I'm not sure if it is required, but assuming it will be accessible, it seems like a good idea.

3) This may answer my comment (0). For a wet vent, flat (2% slope) is fine on the combo, likely preferred, possibly required.

4) For 2" plastic to 3" copper, Fernco 3006-22 or Mission KC-32. For 3" plastic to 3" copper, Fernco 3007-33 or Mission PK-33.

Cheers, Wayne

I'm sorry, I didn't mark up that picture correctly. The bath 2 drain drops between the two toilets in that narrow framed gap. It is both a drain and a 1.5" vent. Like this:

The 3" cleanout at the lower right will stay as I think this is a good idea and cheap. I have another one at the bottom of the master lav which you can just barely see at the top left beyond the framed wall. I was debating putting a third one at the 90 of the Bath 2 lav/vent....again, fairly cheap to do now before cutting and fitting.

This?

That's what I was looking for in the store last night, but clearly too specialty for HD!

Thanks!!

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I've never used an ideal cross have seen them in catalogs perhaps a time or 2 in person but never installed in field Just one of those things I suppose meets UPC but i just never see them maybe in condo or apt but our single family homes are so cut up nothings ever that easy. Im assuming those would be limited to use with todays toilets is why you got a grip leftover?
Is abs still king in Indiana we still use it mainly here

ABS was outlawed here in Indiana long ago because it will burn like a log on a fire
where PVC just smolders.... Both let out tons of toxic fumes..

we have dozens of those crosses in PVC just collecting dust in our storeroom....
been laying there since the 90s..

We used to install them all the time and they were very , very good for that time period....
probably going to throw them all out some day.... they are worth about 20 bucks new
but no one wants them.....

like Terry mentioned ....... the new pressure assisted toilets let out a huge amount of volume at one time and
seem to jump across the fitting if they are back to back close to each other

I have neve heard of any real issues from the hundreds we installed over the years
but I am sure some one has had to modify their systems to accommodate a power flush toilet

(imho they are nothing but trouble anyway).....

 

[Jeff H Young]

I'm sorry, I didn't mark up that picture correctly. The bath 2 drain drops between the two toilets in that narrow framed gap. It is both a drain and a 1.5" vent. Like this:
View attachment 81883
The 3" cleanout at the lower right will stay as I think this is a good idea and cheap. I have another one at the bottom of the master lav which you can just barely see at the top left beyond the framed wall. I was debating putting a third one at the 90 of the Bath 2 lav/vent....again, fairly cheap to do now before cutting and fitting.

This? View attachment 81884

Thatks to have to go to home depot 's what I was looking for in the store last night, but clearly too specialty for HD!

Thanks

ABS was outlawed here in Indiana long ago because it will burn like a log on a fire
where PVC just smolders.... Both let out tons of toxic fumes..

we have dozens of those crosses in PVC just collecting dust in our storeroom....
been laying there since the 90s..

We used to install them all the time and they were very , very good for that time period....
probably going to throw them all out some day.... they are worth about 20 bucks new
but no one wants them.....

like Terry mentioned ....... the new pressure assisted toilets let out a huge amount of volume at one time and
seem to jump across the fitting if they are back to back close to each other

I have neve heard of any real issues from the hundreds we installed over the years
but I am sure some one has had to modify their systems to accommodate a power flush toilet

(imho they are nothing but trouble anyway).....

not crazy about them knowing what I do now about back to back toilets. Abs sure does burn ! i

 

[Oilhammer]

Round two! I wasn't planning on reworking the powder/laundry area but now there's no turning back. It's also all copper but I discovered the flooring had sagged and caused the wall studs to press down on the copper drains and force them into opposite slope. Since I'm in there, might as well change the layout to avoid wasted space. So, same challenge as the other bathroom group. I "want" to save as much as possible but the more I look at it I think it's best to clip the copper above the ceiling and tie in with PVC. The below the floor is limited as it's not over crawl and I already have low ceilings. I really need to avoid pipes below joist (toilet can't be any other way). There will be an awkward 90d turn in the lav drain but I think the best option might be to use a 3x3x2x2 sanitary tee. One side will be washer tap and the other will pick up the lav...but I'd rather have that be 1.5 so I can turn the corner. Am I over complicating this?

Here's the original floor plan:

Here's the demo photos: (2x4 on the floor is loosely mocking up where future walls will go.)

Here's the new floor plan concept:

Pink circle is the 4" dryer vent above the water/drain box (stacking washer dryer)
Small blue circles are roughly where the lav and dryer tap points will be.
Large white circle is the existing copper drain. Small white circle is the copper vent BELOW the main floor. I likely need to have that run right where the blue circle is, which would conflict with the lav drain.
Toilet is another in-wall to save space.
Here's a drain sketch:



For above: Can the laundry, lav, and toilet all tie into the soil stack at different heights as long as they are all from one floor?

Here's an option, but I'm not wild about two 90's on the lav drain to get over to the stack. (Red pipe is the vent from the basement sink)

 

[Oilhammer]

I might have room to do this and make the lav connection under floor but above the closet.

 

[wwhitney]

One thing missing from your drawings and renderings is which way the floor joists run. If I've matched up your photos with the drawings correctly, they run parallel to the WC in wall carrier in the last two renderings, but maybe I've got that mixed up.

If that is correct, can't you move (or jog) the stack above and below so that the WC fixture drain can run through a joist bay to the stack? Might require furring out the walls above and below, so perhaps not worth it, depending on the relative value of ceiling height under the WC vs square footage.

For above: Can the laundry, lav, and toilet all tie into the soil stack at different heights as long as they are all from one floor?

So the top of the stack in the renderings is a dry vent, as implied by your reventing the red downstairs vent on this level.

If all 3 fixtures where bathroom fixtures, say a lav, shower, and WC, then your first rendering would be fine under the vertical wet venting rules. However, you have a laundry standpipe in the mix, so you can't use those rules.

That leaves the IPC common venting rules which says that the stack can vent the top two fixture draining into it. Anything below that would need reventing. That rules out your first rendering. But in the second rendering, if you move the revented lav drain to connect to the stack below the WC, then the stack can vent the laundry standpipe and the WC.

Cheers ,Wayne

 

[Oilhammer]

Ahh, ok. So WC and laundry tie only to stack. Lav sink ties to stack below WC and vents to circuit vent (which runs back to stack vent). Got it. Thanks!

On your first question, yes the floor joists run parallel to the WC. The existing WC is right smack up against the joist on the right side. Moving the stack below is difficult, but the vent portion above the flooring is pretty easy to reroute. I just don't know that it buys me much to move it. The new floor plan has the minimum 30" clear on the toilet, then the w/d is jammed up against that wall. The only reason I can see for moving it might be the space required for the laundry trap. Though I have seen where someone put an offset in the vertical standpipe before to offset the horizontal space needed for the trap. It will still be tight!

 

[wwhitney]

Ahh, ok. So WC and laundry tie only to stack. Lav sink ties to stack below WC and vents to circuit vent (which runs back to stack vent). Got it.

Right, and it doesn't matter which of the 3 you revent, just that the top two are vented by the stack. Those are the IPC rules.

On your first question, yes the floor joists run parallel to the WC. The existing WC is right smack up against the joist on the right side. Moving the stack below is difficult, but the vent portion above the flooring is pretty easy to reroute. I just don't know that it buys me much to move it.

Well, you mentioned that ceiling clearance below was an issue, and that the WC would have to go under the joist. So if you can move the drain below (possibly jogging it in the wall below to line up with the existing, assuming the wall framing can be adjusted or thickened to handle that), then you could lift the WC drain up into the joist bay.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Oilhammer]

I always make things difficult.... so if I'm removing the copper stack, I might as well fix the floor plan, right? This is better:

Then that would mean the piping looks more like this:

Laundry standpipe is far left. I can drain that directly within joist bay to the original stack. I can vent that back up to the 3" copper through the roof. Back to back sinks can drain in floor joist, until it needs to merge with toilet, then it will be below joist but toilet is too. Red vent is from basement bath group.

I'm not sure I've ever seen back to back sinks like this though. I feel like I need to turn the cross and offset each sink a bit.

 

[wwhitney]

Actually if you want to use the lav sink to wet vent the WC, you need to keep its drain separate from the laundry sink drain. So separate san-tees in that wall, the vents can combine at 6" above both flood rims, and then the lav drain joins the WC drain before either the laundry standpipe or laundry sink join in.

Still not clear on upstairs/downstairs geometries and joist direction, and why the lower 3" stack can't be under the same joist bay as the WC carrier, so that you can avoid 3" drains under the joists.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Oilhammer]

1) If the lav/laundry drain turn and connect to the soil stack above the WC, can they then share the drain? Otherwise I'm not sure how the laun sink connects in.
2) I'll sketch the joists and lower floor plan....there may be another obvious thing to you that I'm over complicating.

Basement shower is an add on. Original basement bath was just a toilet and vanity. I'll have to get into the slab to fix the basement shower, but I'm not doing that yet if I can help it.

 

[wwhitney]

1) Not if you want to wet vent the WC. The lav sink drain could run parallel to and vertically above the laundry sink drain, then when they reach the WC, the lav drain joins the WC in a wye/san-tee/combo (depending on which way everything is going) that is upstream of where the laundry sink joins them both.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Oilhammer]

Whew....that's a bundle of snakes.

 

[wwhitney]

Comments:

(1) Connectivity is good: lav is dry vented and wet vents the WC; laundry sink is dry vented and the drain joins downstream of WC and lav; standpipe is dry vented and joins downstream of the lav and WC.

(2) Looks like the red vent from the story below might be easier to run to the lav/sink vent, rather than the standpipe vent? Not sure.

(3) I see you have the joist locations shown. And I infer there is a wall below which contains both the 3" drain stack (into which the laundry standpipe runs) and the red vent. So how wide (2x4, 2x6, etc) is that wall? The horizontal WC drain drawn, it's below the floor joists, is it fully within that wall? Or does your rendering lead to a soffit in that room?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Oilhammer]

The basement wall is 2x6 and it's garbage. I can take it out and frame however I like, though my permit doesn't say I'm doing anything in the basement.....city might hassle me about that, but it's not load bearing.
1) Curious, this confluence is TIGHT in the joists. I'm not sure I can actually fit it. If I move the laundry sink to the left, I can probably tap the washer drain.
2) As you mentioned, the red vent from the basement group might be better moved to the vent off the lav.
3) There is a kitchen sink drain too, but I "was" planning on running it the other direction. Trick is that stack is ideally demo'd later in phase 2. If I wanted to tie in a sink, that's a long run and it hits even further away from the stack than the toilet.

Here's a variant: