1960's American Standard Norwall causing rot

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bnewland

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I have a 1960's American Standard Norwall wall hung toilet which has caused quite a bit of rot over the years, and I'm trying to tackle the repairs myself.
It is my only working bathroom, so it can't take too long without a toilet. I cleared the tiles under it, and the plywood is wet and crumbles apart towards the wall. I cut an access hole in the sheetrock in the adjoining bedroom and can't really identify where the origination point of the water is coming from. I was hoping that someone with experience could help by looking at the pictures I took. I think that water is traveling down the outside of the vent pipe and flowing over the cast iron parts, into the wood, maybe.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
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WorthFlorida

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I'm afraid you'll be needing to remove the toilet off the wall and at least replace the seal. With cast iron pipe it is possible the iron has rusted through and with each flush a little water works it way out. From the pictures the wall seems to be intact except the first few inches from the floor. I love that classic coral. For as short as possible with down time, hire a plumber to remove the toilet and reseal it. If the pipe is rusted out at least you'll know what it will entail. More likely the seal is leaking.

Flushing the toilet look for water that should tell you were it is coming from.

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bnewland

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Thanks for the reply, WorthFlorida.
The problem is that I can't find the water source. It doesn't show itself after flushing. The crawl space under the house gets water from the bathtub when I drain it, so i'm leaning towards cutting the rotted plywood section from under the toilet in order to get a better look at the condition of the plumbing. From the access closet for the bathtub plumbing I can see through a 2" gap next to the tub drain and there is about a foot of standing water. Since I have only had around a inch of rain in the last 6 months, my bet is it is from the tub drain where it junctions with the sink and toilet. It all goes to the septic tank about 30 feet past the bathroom wall.
I like your suggestion on hiring out the toilet and seal r&r. I think I can repair the rot damage first. If I find something beyond my skills when I remove the plywood, that'll be the time to call my plumber.
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Breplum

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Those old wall carriers are very tricky if you haven't worked on them much.
There are a variety of gaskets to try and it is time consuming and can be endlessly frustrating.
New wall carriers have plastic drain spuds that allow for easy depth adjustment. If you have an adjustable spud, it is rusted in place, guaranteed !
Replacing the wall carrier and toilet is rarely done in residential (but done a lot in schools, where they are spec'd all the time here in my county).
On residential, we usually go to a floor mount conventional WC or modern two bolt frame/ wall carrier which use a modern gasket system that is virtually foolproof.
 

bnewland

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Thanks, Breplum. Do most people faced with replacing a carrier just install a traditional toilet instead?
 

bnewland

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I removed the plywood under the toilet, and this is what I found:
1. Subfloor that was extremely brittle (with a big hole from a previous flange?)
2. access to be able to see the main sewer pipe, I think.
3. I noticed the top two bolts to the bowl were pulled away from the wall slightly. Enough to cause a leak, but not in the room, rather behind the wall transferring to the floor under the tiles?
 

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bnewland

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My parts came in for the toilet (zurn bowl to wall gasket, and zurn nuts) so I can remove the toilet. That's the least of my problems though.
I took more plywood out, identified the leak as coming from the supply line in the wall, as well as the wax ring AND the tub drain connection where it dumps into the waste line. Yes, i've got a thread for the tub drain over in the plumbing forum here: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....in-be-fixed-with-a-tee-saddle-on-cast.104809/

After removing the felt paper under the plywood, the subfloor fell apart so now this is a much bigger project. Here's new pics.
 

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Tuttles Revenge

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Very Important!!!! 4 Bolt wall hung toilets need to be resting against washers that are supported by nuts on the 5/8" threaded studs. The toilet should not make contact to the wall and should not rely on the tile for support. The washers need to be perfectly plumb and even with each other or the toilet will crack. Because the bolts were cut for the toilet to rest against the wall tiles, you may need to extend them outwards more to make up for that difference. The drain barrel of the carrier needs to be set at the proper depth to recess into the back of the toilet.. Too far out and it will bust the toilet. Not far enough out and it wont make contact with the seal.

When bolting them to the wall. The top left nut and the bottom 2 nuts are snugged up with a wrench. The upper right is only hand tightened.

Wax Gaskets should not be used on wall hung toilets ever. They will fail. A neoprene gasket is the proper seal.
 

bnewland

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That's awesome, Tuttles Revenge! Is a level sufficient to make sure that the load bearing washers (inside) are all plumb, and barely outside of the wall surface? Or is a plumb used as well?
 

bnewland

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I found this on an ebay item. I'm posting for reference and others to use.
 

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Tuttles Revenge

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A level is accurate enough. That's a pretty cool reference. You can see the support washers in the diagram. A lot of the older installations didn't use them. They worked for a long time.. til they don't.

We have a local plumber who thinks he's our competition.. One of our techs was called in to look at a toilet that he had just reset and messed up. He had set it against the tile and completely caved in the wall. Apparently he stopped in while she was there and started yelling at her in front of the customer... we've now gone to that same complex and fixed several other wall mounted toilets that he had fixt.
 

bnewland

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Good that you look out for customers like that. Bad that your tech was berated.
 

MidwestDIYer

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As another owner of a '60's vintage home with more than 1 of these American Standard wall toilets- Thanks for some great info!!!!
I've reseated these units multiple times with various wax rings over the years but they all leak after a time (few years if I'm lucky)... so gonna try the Zurn gasket on the one I have leaking now. Any thoughts on how much gasket compression is right for a good seal (how much the drain pipe should indent the gasket)?
FWIW- I tried the Fernco FTS style seal without success. The flex ribs fit the drain pipe but the adhesive did not hold to the toilet horn base despite my best efforts to clean it (Simple Green, alcohol, paint thinner, window cleaner, etc.)
 

Tuttles Revenge

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As another owner of a '60's vintage home with more than 1 of these American Standard wall toilets- Thanks for some great info!!!!
I've reseated these units multiple times with various wax rings over the years but they all leak after a time (few years if I'm lucky)... so gonna try the Zurn gasket on the one I have leaking now. Any thoughts on how much gasket compression is right for a good seal (how much the drain pipe should indent the gasket)?
FWIW- I tried the Fernco FTS style seal without success. The flex ribs fit the drain pipe but the adhesive did not hold to the toilet horn base despite my best efforts to clean it (Simple Green, alcohol, paint thinner, window cleaner, etc.)
Yeah.. I have no idea what would clean the wax off to clean it sufficiently for sealant.. technically it shouldn't need the sealant, its there mostly to hold the gasket from falling off during installation.

Each toilet has a specified depth that the drain should be set.. but since that documentation is gone I would try for 3/8" compression. The gasket is about 3/4"
 
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