150+ psi pressure after whole house filtration system.

[Ted S]

Update: After posting this. I found major issue in this setup. Please see my updated figure below.
The issue is that the filtration loop was going nowhere. The diagram explains it best.

Hello,

Please bear with me as I explain the situation. It is very odd and I cannot find a resolution. I hope this is the right place for this question.

Summary: High pressure in the system only when I run the filtration system regeneration or in service mode!

Equipment:

• Fleck 2510 AIO (10 x 54)
• Fleck 5600 SXT (10 x 54)

Conditions:

• Can occur with either AIO and softener in service or both.
• Occurs with AIO in regeneration mode (air injection).
• Pressure rises steadily within about a minute from 45 psi to about 150
  
• Occurs with softener regeneration mode.
  
• Does not happen in backwash mode.
• Does not happen in rapid rinse mode.
• With high pressure, fine mesh ends up in all faucets and toilets
• Hot water tank relief valve opens up and releases pressure
• Can relieve the pressure if I open one of the faucets (high water pressure)
• Can also relieve the pressure by putting the tanks in bypass mode. (then I hear pressure adjustments in the pipes / water tank)
• Well pressure tank never goes above 45 psi

Troubleshooting done:

• Rebuilt the system.
• Checked that the baskets are not clogged or cracked.
  
• Replaced sediment filters.
• Triple checked the settings for each...
• Made sure no air is in the system / pipes.

Please see diagram attached Any pointers are greatly appreciated

 

[Reach4]

Your AIO system has a check valve. As a consequence, you need a thermal expansion tank at the water heater cold.

Now is there some chemical reaction that generates a bit of gas? I don't know, but it seems possible. If you turn off your WH, and the pressure rise still happens, then we will know. You might oversize the thermal expansion tank over what you would just need for your WH.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Ted S]

Your AIO system has a check valve. As a consequence, you need a thermal expansion tank at the water heater cold.

Now is there some chemical reaction that generates a bit of gas? I don't know, but it seems possible. If you turn off your WH, and the pressure rise still happens, then we will know. You might oversize the thermal expansion tank over what you would just need for your WH.

Thank you for the quick reply.
I did install an expansion tank for the heater (cold side) and set it to 80 psi (rated at 100 psi), although with a well tank I should not have needed one.
I will re-test with the water heater off (power and water) and report back.
I personally wonder if it is the well pump, but the well tank pressure never goes higher than 45!

And the pressure is high right at the output of the filtration system. The water heater is further downstream.

 

[Wolf911]

Thank you for the quick reply.
I did install an expansion tank for the heater (cold side) and set it to 80 psi (rated at 100 psi), although with a well tank I should not have needed one.
I will re-test with the water heater off (power and water) and report back.
I personally wonder if it is the well pump, but the well tank pressure never goes higher than 45!

And the pressure is high right at the output of the filtration system. The water heater is further downstream.

I would check the directions for that expansion tank. I just installed one a while back and it said to set the pressure at the system pressure. Dont know if that has anything to do with your 150 psi problem though

 

[Bannerman]

I did install an expansion tank for the heater (cold side) and set it to 80 psi (rated at 100 psi)

What is the well pump pressure switch setting? Since you don't seem alarmed by the pressure gauge showing 45 psi, I then anticipate the pressure switch settings are likely 30/50 or 40/60 psi in which case, the expansion tank precharge should be 50 or 60 psi, not 80. With 80 psi precharge, no water will enter the expansion tank until the system pressure has risen to 80 psi and above.

although with a well tank I should not have needed one.

As Reach4 stated, the AIO system uses a check valve so thermal expansion from the WH will be prevented from flowing back through the AIO to the well system pressure tank.

As your pressure gauge never displays higher than 45 psi, suggest 1) removing the gauge to check the fitting it is threaded to is not blocked with debris which could prevent the gauge from sensing pressure accurately, 2) the gauge is defective and requires replacement.

 

[wwhitney]

I don't know much about AIO, can the air injector compressor go crazy and pressurize the system to 150 psi?

Also, what is the import of this observation "With high pressure, fine mesh ends up in all faucets and toilets"?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

I presume your AIO system does not have an electric air pump. If I am wrong in that assumption, say so.

I did install an expansion tank for the heater (cold side) and set it to 80 psi (rated at 100 psi), although with a well tank I should not have needed one.

You should have set the expansion tank precharge to 45 since the well pressure gauge never tops 45. But instead of that 1 gallon one that you put in, consider a bigger one if necessary . Dropping that expansion tank air precharge to 45 will help. It could also be that your thermal expansion has failed. You don't have a valve on its input, do you ? If you do, make sure that valve is open.

It is nice that you have two pressure gauges.

I expect a small dribble from any of your faucets will quickly bring the water pressure back down to 45 psi or less. That could be your workaround until you fix your expansion tank problem.

 

[Bannerman]

Also, what is the import of this observation "With high pressure, fine mesh ends up in all faucets and toilets"?

Resin escaping into the home's plumbing system is a common symptom of either: 1) softener's inlet and outlet connections plumbed in reverse, 2) broken bottom screen.

Confirm the incoming water is entering the connection on the right when facing the softener from the front. The softener's flow meter will be located on the left as only soft water flowing out to the home's fixtures is to be measured through the meter.

Since there are 2 gauges, a simple method to check if the low reading gauge will display higher pressure will be to swap the locations for both gauges. This will help to determine if the gauge which had been showing only 45 psi max, will now also display 100 psi+ or will it continue to display only 45 psi while located in the high-pressure zone.

Will the 150 psi gauge now located beside the pressure switch, display the correct cut-in and cut-out pressure?

 

[Reach4]

Since there are 2 gauges, a simple method to check if the low reading gauge will display higher pressure will be to swap the locations for both gauges.

Opening a faucet slightly should make those pretty much equalize.

 

[Ted S]

Hello all.

I think this entire mess was caused by an ignorant installation.... and my oversight when changing the filter media / etc....
The pipes behind the well pressure tank in a corner was not fully visible to me. The pump and junction are in the crawlspace.
The filtration is not in the proper loop! (duh).

 

[ditttohead]

Set the thermal expansion tank to 5 pounds above the pressure cut off switch "low" from the well. Some may say to go 5 pounds above the "high" setting, in all reality, it is not that critical but less air equals more expansion room. Be sure your thermal expansion tank is large enough. Going bigger is typically not a problem.

 

[Ted S]

Resin escaping into the home's plumbing system is a common symptom of either: 1) softener's inlet and outlet connections plumbed in reverse, 2) broken bottom screen.

I guess I had the one other version of #1 is having a loop back-feeding into itself.... When you think you've seen it all .

 

[Bannerman]

It seems the loop back you show in the diagram, would result in tbe equivalent to the softener connections being reversed.

Even as flow would be reversed through the softener's outlet connection, flow cannot proceed backwards through the AIO check valve.

Are you certain your illustration is accurate? I can't see how you could obtain conditioned water and resin through your home fixtures as the supply to the home is shown direct from the well.

The pressure gauges configured as you depict, should be reading identically.

 

[Ted S]

It seems the loop back you show in the diagram, would result in tbe equivalent to the softener connections being reversed.

Even as flow would be reversed through the softener's outlet connection, flow cannot proceed backwards through the AIO check valve.

Are you certain your illustration is accurate? I can't see how you could obtain conditioned water and resin through your home fixtures as the supply to the home is shown direct from the well.

The pressure gauges configured as you depict, should be reading identically.

This is a new house to me. I removed the well tank to access the corner and have better visibility and also, took the entire right portion off the connection (emptied well tank etc....) I was still getting water in the faucets with high pressure and well pump running.
The check valve in the AIO works fine (double checked).
Perhaps the high pressure forces the smaller broken mesh beads out, through the basket when the pressure is not low enough for the well pump to kick in.
Regarding the two gauges, that should be equal in pressure. They are normally unless the regeneration is going on... I don't think I can upload a video here.
For now it is strictly well water in the house and I am OK with that for showers (wife is not happy though)
I have to travel for 10 days. and when I am back I will dismantle this entire thing and update here.

 

[Reach4]

Do you maybe have some more valves piped in, letting the house receive either raw water or treated water?

 

[Ted S]

Do you maybe have some more valves piped in, letting the house receive either raw water or treated water?

Yes I do, exactly like you have shown.

 

[Ted S]

Hi all, just want to give an update.
I finally got around re piping the well filtration system.
Clearing the area and moving the well pressure tank made a huge difference, and with the new installation the issue is solved.
Yes, the old filter was never done properly.
Here's what was done:

1. Moved well tank
2. Opened wall,
3. Made a bypass. 1" to 3/4" (unfortunately)
4. Piped the line to sediment filter
5. Then to iron oxygen filter
6. Then to softener (48 k)
7. Back into house

I will add a post sediment filter @output of softener.

Now running filter then softener do not cause pressure increase. And the water feels better (hope it's not placebo effect )
Stays pretty much at 60psi or less.

See attached photos.

What's very unfortunate is that this custom home never had a working house filter on a well system. There's a pretty good layer of mud / dirt / iron on the entire inside wall of the house pipes.
What a waste.... Such a bad mistake

Now I need to figure out how to clean the inside of the piping...ugh

 

[Ted S]

The sediment filter although cleaned up will need to be replaced with a new one. There's what looks like black sand that I need cleaned up. I flushed the water heater + pressure tank at least once. Will do it again.