1 minute + delay in getting water after pump kicks in

[smokingtundra]

Well spoken, Valveman. As a diehard do-it-yourselfer, I will say that in this case I was extremely happy that I didn't try it on my own. Renting out a boom truck for probably two days, on top of obtaining/making the specialized tools for pulling the pipe would have probably cost me close to the labor charges anyway.

It is true that in Alaska many things are more expensive, and you just have to sort of suck it up and bear it. From talking with the drillers, sounds like things are pretty slow for them right now....living from check to check. (At least thats the way they made it sound.) It's too bad they had to insist on their own box, and give me a little white lie about it. At least tell me the truth, and say you only use your own parts or whatever. Or, I guess he could have let me use the box I purchased, but creatively added $60 to the bill. They did tell me a story about a job they did for a fellow, whom afterwards insisted that one of their pipe wrenches belonged to him. After he insisted, the drillers said 'OK..', and promptly added $60 of labor to the bill to cover the pipe wrench.

I would be interested to see if I could purchase pump/motor, control box and other supplies over the internet at a discount, and have one of the local installers put it in for just labor costs. Something tells me it the local outfits wouldn't go for it.

 

[Texas Wellman]

Look at it this way-now you have a brand new spare C-Box.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Masterpumpman]

Yep, Valveman said it right "there are few professionals with experience these days"! What worked for Dad works for me too! Todays technology has proven that too many check valves in a system aren't required (That's old technology thinking) and are eventually a problem.

Since Valveman was right about the leak you may want to research his Cycle Stop Valve at http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html. I think you should consider a Cycle Stop Valve in the line to reduce cycling (and give you constant pressure) and consider a Cycle Sensor to prevent your pump from running dry, burning or wearing our your new pump prematurally. What's a few more dollars for constant pressure and system security?

 

[Valveman]

It's too bad they had to insist on their own box, and give me a little white lie about it.

I am sure the pumpman is living paycheck to paycheck. He probably has about 3 months a year to do the work and make a living, the rest of the year cold and bleak. I don’t blame the pump man for the control box either. Pump men are usually honest as the day is long. His supplier told him that, because the pump manufacturer told the supplier the same thing. The suppliers are only at fault for acting like they know what they are talking about, when they don’t. Suppliers are just order takers and don’t know anything except what the pump manufacturer tells them.

The pump manufacturers are the ones who will say and do anything to keep the cash flowing. They teach their salespeople that “their” brand of pump is superior to others, VFD’s will make a pump last longer and save energy, only “their” control box will work, and then build a 7 year average fail date into their pump, motor, and tank to keep the cash flowing regularly. The only changes they make are when something is working too well, or lasting too long. So they put in a lighter bearing, replace metal parts with plastic, shorten the length of the motor stator, and anything else they can do to manufacture a product with a predictable and short fail date.

The Cycle Stop Valve is a “disruptive” product. It makes pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tank, along with other benefits. Selling these for the last 20 years has let me see the real story behind pump manufacturers and left me very cynical. No pump manufacturers sell the CSV. They actually do everything they can to discredit it. They try to make people think backpressure will destroy your pump or blow up the pipe. Although they won’t put it in writing, they tell people the warranty is void if you use a CSV. They say the CSV “burns” or “waste” energy. At the same time they are promoting VFD systems that, really are expensive, short lived, non-repairable, and waste energy. So you should do exactly the opposite of what the pump manufacturer and supply house salesman tells you to do, because they are promoting their most “profitable” product, which is not at all what is best for the consumer.

In spite of this I still sell a lot of CSV’s. It is getting hard for them to argue the point with NO failures and 20 years of happy CSV customers out there, but they still try anyway. Thank goodness for the Internet, as now people can educate themselves instead of just having to go by what the salesman is pushing on them. “I read it on the Internet” is a good thing as long as you can verify the source.

 

[Craigpump]

I really have to question replacing only part of the galvanized pipe, that sounds like a built in service call a few years down the road to replace the old stuff.

Overall the pump guy didn't hurt you price wise, matter of fact sounds pretty damn fair to me and a whole lot better than the $8500.00 he quoted you to begin with.

 

[Ballvalve]

I am not contractor bashing, I am a contractor and have had several licenses, some on hold in this depression. But after 30 year+ in this crappy business, and perhaps 400 come and gone employees, I can judge a dope and a liar very quick.

can we forgive the guys in alsaka for going for more because they live in the sticks? hard to say. I built a community center in Delta Junction, alaska in the 80's, in December, and I have to tell you it was a nightmare. but I brought my guys from the states, and the locals were mostly drunk and sleeping in the snow most of the time.

Anyway, I saw 278' of pipe and thought that was the new hang height. I set a pump at 350' in a 1000' well, because I had a belief that the standing water height of 50' would carry it. 10 years later [on poly] the owner loves me for the savings of many thousands of dollars. Some have hung poly at 500' and when done right, and especially if pumping into a static tank, and using the right clamps and fittings, it works just fine.

over 500' and indeed you are in steel. But there is as much bad steel as there are bad cars. Its a real crapshoot unless you use us pipe sched 80 or ductile, but not usually available in small sizes. Probably cheaper to melt snow than to drill a 1000 foot well in alaska.

And here is a real brain teaser: when i pulled that 1000' well, it was all hung on schd. 40 PVC with standard couplers glued on. and it held for 32 years! Now that tells me that poly can go below 500'.

 

[LLigetfa]

And here is a real brain teaser: when i pulled that 1000' well, it was all hung on schd. 40 PVC with standard couplers glued on. and it held for 32 years! Now that tells me that poly can go below 500'.

I think generally when we refer to poly, we are not talking PVC.

 

[Texas Wellman]

So are you a water well guy or not? Not a "do a little well jobs here and there because it's part of the bigger job" type deal.

You're judging a guy without putting boots on the ground and knowing the area like he knows it. With a slim window in which to work ( I heard alaska has a 5 month window to do most outside work ) and expensive parts and helpers etc. And so by sheer deduction have surmised that he's a liar and a dope?

The argument here is not about the poly. Going by even the highest spec poly that I know of ( 200 psi ) it is not only out of spec but it's going to be around 2x out of the spec. Can it be done? Yes. Will it last? Maybe. Whose fault will it be if it gives or splits in 3-4 years? ALWAYS the pump installer.

I'm not even sure why you are comparing sch 40 pvc to poly. Sch 40 pvc is rated for double ( 450 psi ) of what poly is rated for. Add in the fact that poly is generally quite a bit more expensive and you get deeper in the hole. Glued joints, if done properly, will be the last thing to break. I have pulled stuck PVC with my hoist and it never breaks at the glued joint, always in the pipe itself.

I am not contractor bashing, I am a contractor and have had several licenses, some on hold in this depression. But after 30 year+ in this crappy business, and perhaps 400 come and gone employees, I can judge a dope and a liar very quick.

can we forgive the guys in alsaka for going for more because they live in the sticks? hard to say. I built a community center in Delta Junction, alaska in the 80's, in December, and I have to tell you it was a nightmare. but I brought my guys from the states, and the locals were mostly drunk and sleeping in the snow most of the time.

Anyway, I saw 278' of pipe and thought that was the new hang height. I set a pump at 350' in a 1000' well, because I had a belief that the standing water height of 50' would carry it. 10 years later [on poly] the owner loves me for the savings of many thousands of dollars. Some have hung poly at 500' and when done right, and especially if pumping into a static tank, and using the right clamps and fittings, it works just fine.

over 500' and indeed you are in steel. But there is as much bad steel as there are bad cars. Its a real crapshoot unless you use us pipe sched 80 or ductile, but not usually available in small sizes. Probably cheaper to melt snow than to drill a 1000 foot well in alaska.

And here is a real brain teaser: when i pulled that 1000' well, it was all hung on schd. 40 PVC with standard couplers glued on. and it held for 32 years! Now that tells me that poly can go below 500'.

 

[Craigpump]

Why do you think this is a crappy business?

Anyone who would put 1" sch 40 pvc in a 1000' well really needs to rethink their installation practices.

 

[Ballvalve]

Frankly, I think the pump and well business would be a fairly decent one on trade. And THAT was my point: a certain well driller here, about 30 years ago hung everything on PVC schd 40 and, not the good stuff #120 with SS couplers - just the average junk. Of course HE was a dope, as standard PVC has no flex and loves to crack in motion. But he got the all the bids by using that sabotage material.

As to Alaska, we were hanging steel siding in -40f weather. Not for long at a time though. It was small village, and outside of the military there, the locals were a pretty debased bunch on the doll.

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/generalinfor...sifications/AGeneralEngineeringContractor.asp

I once held a c-57 license, for wells and pumps, but never drilled a well, as I had a saint that hardly ever went over 80 feet and got 50 GPM for 8 to 10$ a foot. For several years he did "no charge for dry hole". He gave that up when I owned a lot over a monstrous gold mine from the 1840's with thousands of miles of tunnels. Always ended up in a big void. One time he did drill through another area mine shaft and managed to case through the void and get good water deeper.

But I have NEVER contracted for a pump, and set an awful lot. Never had one fall in the hole in 35 years. Though if I had a thousand foot hole I guess I would hire it out, or use my excavator to pull it. Thats how I pulled that 1000' string of junk sched 40 pvc. Any way, I own way too much property and rentals, and these days I just manage my own 15 or so wells. And miles and miles of pipe, and complex storage systems, and am often repiping [underground] some of my 18 year old bad ideas.. Anyway, have a stock of pumps and control boxes, and all those little things you know about that fills a good part of a wall. I would be flat broke without being able to do the sets and maintenance myself. If I had the cash and the lack of family that taught me about every trade from tailoring to steam fitting, I would hire you guys in a minute and sit back and drink.