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  1. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    Frost doesn’t heave surface bedrock (unless you want to get really picky and talk about permafrost bedrock heaving), it’s not loose rocks, it’s solid rock, in this case from the surface down to the molten core. So no, frozen solid bedrock doesn’t heave buildings. Oh, one more thing, I’m done…...
  2. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    There is no constant 50° near the surface of bedrock in a cold climate. There is no “deeper”, I’m building on surface bedrock, the “heat from below” doesn’t come to the surface. The 70° from above is blocked by the insulation under the slab. The mean temperature here in January is 16°, the above...
  3. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    Thanks, I’ve been seeing if both traps can go near the house wall, where it would be deep enough to insulate, but right now the plans puts one of them in the shallowest part and the other midway, both at an exterior wall. The bedrock is very soft sedimentary stone, and I have a lot of experience...
  4. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    BTW, my nephew is a local plumber, an acquaintance owns the largest plumbing company is my county, and I've used one other plumbing company on major projects, not one of them has had to do what I want to do, and none had an answer other than an insulated box around the traps, and they all...
  5. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    I don't know why you would say that, I do have many years of experience as a contractor in cold-climate Vermont. I asked for help with something I've never had to do before, a p-trap under a slab right on top of surface bedrock. You don't seem to understand how sub-zero cold travels laterally...
  6. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    It would increase heat load a bit though, and with radiant heating the insulation wants to be right below, with the tubing inside the slab. We're covered as far as continuous insulation. here's a rough sketch of how we do it.
  7. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    No drain line freezing issue. The existing drain line exits the house and sits on bedrock with only 1" foam on top of that, covered by 2" of soil. It's been like that for decades. It follows the outside of the house like that for 24+ feet. I've done many slabs, and always gravel 1st, insulation...
  8. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    Thanks again Wayne. I drew a very rough sketch to show that the issue is even more severe than what you've drawn, or that John seems to understand. 4" horizontal rigid insulation under slab, 3'4" vertical inside short concrete stem walls. As you can see the bedrock is very close to grade, even...
  9. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    I can’t seem to get this part across, the Earth will *not* be 50 degrees below this addition. It’s sitting on solid rock, which comes to the surface, not soil. The extreme cold, as I’ve said at least once, makes the bedrock as cold as the outside air, often 20 below zero in the winter, and that...
  10. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    Thanks Wayne, It's looking like that's the way to go! I thought maybe there were enough examples of a successful option with slab, surface bedrock, cold climate, etc., but I've yet to find anyone anywhere who's said "that's my exact situation, and I did it by _______________________ " (fill in...
  11. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    Thanks. I don't think any of this addresses the main problem, that there is bedrock at the surface, with insulation around the exterior walls and over the gravel on the ground, which will keep the room warm, but not prevent cold from getting under that insulation. There is no protection from the...
  12. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    Thanks, but remember I said I'm right on bedrock. And there is no footing, as I said, I'm pinning the new concrete walls to the bedrock, which is the biggest strongest footing on Earth. :-) The insulation under the slab and on the inside of the short stem walls will keep the room warm, but the...
  13. Ed Dooley

    Tub and shower trap in concrete slab sitting on bedrock (ledge)

    I’m building a bathroom addition on my house in Vermont. It’s 10′ x 18′, with the 18′ wall parallel to the house. Ten feet out the ledge is right at grade, at the house it’s only 9-12″ down from grade to ledge. I’ll be pinning a poured concrete wall to the ledge, at grade that wall height will...
  14. Ed Dooley

    My Rinnai E50C installation

    Ken, I just saw this, months after you posted! Sorry, I haven't been back here for a year or so. Not sure if there was an option to receive email alerts when someone replies to a post or comment. Did you wind up installing your Rinnai? If so, how did it go? In belated answer to your question...
  15. Ed Dooley

    My Rinnai E50C installation

    As an amateur, I spent a long time researching the best options to install my boiler. I found surprisingly few online resources for my particular model (plenty of videos for other brands). So here's the blow by blow of my experience (thanks to those that responded to my few queries here). This...
  16. Ed Dooley

    Navien vs Rinnai and others

    Dana says fin-tube baseboard emits about 200BTUs per foot. Isn't is more than double that, depending on GPM? Slant-Fin says 510BTUs at 170 degrees and 1GPM and 540 at 4GPM. Where are you getting 200BTUs per foot? The only way I see it in the 200BTUs neighborhood is when the temp is 120 or less...
  17. Ed Dooley

    Wiring Grundfos single zone relay, pump, and Rinnai E50C boiler

    Finally found the time to finish the boiler installation, and I'm having a brain freeze. I have some of the wiring done, but the installation instructions that comes with the relay (and to a lesser extent, the boiler) leave a lot to be desired for an amateur. It's a single-zone system with one...
  18. Ed Dooley

    Rinnai boiler expansion tank and Spirovent location

    That's why I followed up, just in case there was a boiler-specific reason, and as I mentioned, they said it would have worked the other way too. Too add to my confusion, while I was researching the answer I came across a This Old House Rinnai installation video, it was a bigger model, but the...
  19. Ed Dooley

    Rinnai boiler expansion tank and Spirovent location

    FYI, I just talked to Rinnai engineering. I went up the ladder through 3 tech support guys until they gave me right to engineering. The illustrations are wrong! Can't believe I'm the only one who caught that, (I'm sure I'm not) it's been out for years. Best practice is what I assumed, air scoop...
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