New Well - Winter Livestock Water in Vermont - Ideas?

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LCF

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I just cleared 20 acres at my new property in Londonderry VT. I am moving my goats to a new barn we had built and in a few weeks we are drilling a well for livestock water. I am trenching power out there now.

Right now in the existing barn there is a line of pex running from my basement to the electric trough which keeps the water from freezing. I open an app on my phone and press a button which opens a valve plugged into a smart switch, and water is sent from the basement to the bucket and when I turn the app off, another valve in my basement opens and drains back the water from the pex into a sump pit in my basement. I set it up this way because the existing barn is no longer heated and in rough shape and I was able to utilize the existing water line without it freezing in winter. The best part is that I don't need to go into the goat stalls to give them water and can fill it from a distance.

So at the new barn there is bedrock everywhere. The well driller said that they have a solution to every problem up here and they have been doing it for 40 years, but I was hoping to brainstorm some ideas on here so that I can decide on the best course of action.

What I would prefer to do is set up the well with a frost free hydrant next to it that will always have the handle open. The well pump would be wired to a smart switch and I could remotely turn it on every day for a few minutes to flush out the goat water (heated trough) which will be outside the building. When I turn the smart switch off, I was hoping to have the water drain back down into the well. No pressure tank as this will only be run for a few minutes each day. My concern is that the drain on the bottom of the hydrant will freeze up as I am not sure we will be able to get it below the frost line due to the bedrock but we will find out soon.

I was hoping for suggestions and ideas so that I can have a conversation with the driller. Thank you in advance!
 

WorthFlorida

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....... When I turn the smart switch off, I was hoping to have the water drain back down into the well. No pressure tank as this will only be run for a few minutes each day. My concern is that the drain on the bottom of the hydrant will freeze up as I am not sure we will be able to get it below the frost line due to the bedrock but we will find out soon...........

As to not lose prime for the well pump, you cannot have water flow back down the well. Usually there is a check valve near the pump or a foot valve is used. If the well static water level is just below the frost line, say five feet, many pumps are self priming (look at the specs) and it might work without a check valve, BUT, water is never completely drained out of the pump housing that can freeze and crack. In cold climates many pump houses are below ground, insulated around the sump and an incandescent light bulb is used for heat.
 

VAWellDriller

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I
The well driller said that they have a solution to every problem up here and they have been doing it for 40 years, but I was hoping to brainstorm some ideas on here so that I can decide on the best course of action.

Give the man a chance.....doesn't sound like a unique problem for the area. I'm sure there is a drain back system on the riser pipe. Bounce his idea around here...and we can chime in. There are a lot of smart well drillers who have some great tricks.

There are also a lot of idiots out there.
 

LCF

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I was planning on hearing them out but don't think they will be too receptive on me wiring the pump to a smart switch (works great for me and a made major changes to how I do things on my farm but I haven't ever had a well directly connected to one). The riser pipe on the hydrant does have a drain back valve on the bottom but my reasoning for wanting to keep the handle up at all times was so that when I turn off the pump via wifi switch it will automatically let air in via the hydrant and drain back to the well. I do understand that pumps have foot valves but perhaps there is something we can install in the line above the pump that will let everything above it drain back so that it doesn't lose prime. I have used underground well houses for pressure tanks in the past but believe we will have problems due to bedrock.
 

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The riser pipe on the hydrant does have a drain back valve on the bottom but my reasoning for wanting to keep the handle up at all times was so that when I turn off the pump via wifi switch it will automatically let air in via the hydrant and drain back to the well.
The open hydrant would be spewing water out the spout when the pump is on. The drain-back path is only open when the yard hydrant is off.

Normally in a well drain back system, there is a check valve downstream (farther from the pump) of a "snifter valve", which admits air when there is a vacuum in the pipe. Sometimes the check valve is combined with a casting that accepts the snifter valve on the upstream side of the check valve. The snifter valve is a Schrader valve with a very weak spring so that a vacuum can pull the seal open. There are special valve caps that pass air. The valve caps made for tires do not pass air. You can use snifter as a nice search engine term to add to searches that will give you lots of pages that involve drain back well systems.

I do understand that pumps have foot valves but perhaps there is something we can install in the line above the pump that will let everything above it drain back so that it doesn't lose prime.
That is called a drainback valve if you use a gadget made for the purpose. Alternatively you drill a hole that will spew water back into the well when the pump runs.
 

VAWellDriller

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I was planning on hearing them out but don't think they will be too receptive on me wiring the pump to a smart switch (works great for me and a made major changes to how I do things on my farm but I haven't ever had a well directly connected to one). The riser pipe on the hydrant does have a drain back valve on the bottom but my reasoning for wanting to keep the handle up at all times was so that when I turn off the pump via wifi switch it will automatically let air in via the hydrant and drain back to the well. I do understand that pumps have foot valves but perhaps there is something we can install in the line above the pump that will let everything above it drain back so that it doesn't lose prime. I have used underground well houses for pressure tanks in the past but believe we will have problems due to bedrock.

What you are saying will work as long as there is an air gap between the hose on the hydrant and the water trough. The pump does have a check valve....they make and you can install what's called a bleeder anywhere in the drop pipe in the well to allow water to drain...usually 1 or 2 sticks of pipe down from top. You could also drill a small hole in the drop pipe that would leak all the time. I don't Ike doing that but it's bulletproof and cannot fail. As long as you smart switch can carry the current of the pump, sounds like a simple way to hook it up. You would need to put a pressure relief on the system just in case someone closed the hydrant when you weren't there.

I'm assuming I understand you correctly and what you want to do is not have any pressure tank or pressure switch...just turn pump on or off to fill /the one trough.
 

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Like VA says just put a bleeder in the well pump line about 5-10' below ground. You could also just drill a hole in the check valve on the submersible pump. Don't really need a frost free hydrant, but it won't hurt anything. A vacuum breaker on the hose is needed to keep from siphoning the water trough back down the well when the pump shuts off. Well guys need to get use to smart switches. I have them on all my pumps, irrigation valves, and many other things. Nice to be able to control things from my phone when needed.
 

LCF

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Thank you guys very much! I will take the advice to the driller and see what we can work out. I like the the idea of a hydrant so that I can hook a hose up as needed to spray out the stalls when I am cleaning, otherwise the trough will sit below the hydrant with no hose and then drain back to the well when I am done. Now I was not thinking about the amperage for the smart switch. I believe the maximum they can handle is 20amp so hopefully we can get a pump that will work on 20 amp or less and we don't have to drill too deep.
 

Reach4

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Thank you guys very much! I will take the advice to the driller and see what we can work out. I like the the idea of a hydrant so that I can hook a hose up as needed to spray out the stalls when I am cleaning, otherwise the trough will sit below the hydrant with no hose and then drain back to the well when I am done. Now I was not thinking about the amperage for the smart switch. I believe the maximum they can handle is 20amp so hopefully we can get a pump that will work on 20 amp or less and we don't have to drill too deep.
Regarding having a yard hydrant, that can be useful. But how will you build pressure? The answer is that you will need to close the path to the tank so that does not shunt the flow. I would think you would want to put in a valve, but also have a pressure relief valve in case the tank valve is shut and the hydrant is shut. You don't want the pump to deadhead for a long time.

A pump might take 5 amps while running, but draw 50 amps for a brief period during starting. A mechanical relay will probably be fine with that. An all-solid-state switch may not be.

A yard hydrant connects the riser to a drain that typically drains into buried gravel when it is off. When the hydrant is on, the drain path is closed, and the riser connects to the water input.

You expect to drain the whole trough back to the well?
 

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You can get just a hose X pipe fitting. I am concerned that someone could close the frost free hydrant and burn up your pump. I would not put any kind of valve that could be closed on that system. You also do not need a pressure tank or pressure switch when you manually run it with a smart switch. I use the Aeotec heavy duty smart switch. Don't remember the max amps but I have pumps up to 2HP running on them.
 

LCF

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Good call about the hydrant being closed accidentally. The goats could of course close it and they like to tamper with things. I can just weld it so the handle stays open at all times. I will also set up a "routine" that any time the pump is turned on it will automatically shut off after 5 minutes in case I accidentally forget, or the goats jump up and press the switch, etc. That means that there would be no way for the pump to remain on and burn out and no way for the hydrant handle to close.

I understand about the drain back feature not working with the handle open but I am figuring that with either a valve installed in the well above the pump, or a hole drilled through the poly inside the well, the water will drain to the well instead of using the valve at the bottom of the hydrant?

I am not trying to drain the trough. That will be plugged into a heater that will keep the water from freezing and will sit below the hydrant.

Looking at the Aeotec switch, it isn't directly compatible with Amazon Alexa which I use to control my routines via devices and app, but there might be a workaround. Thank you!
 
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Valveman

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Looking at the Aeotec switch, it isn't directly compatible with Amazon Alexa which I use to control my routines via devices and app, but there might be a workaround. Thank you!

Aeotec works great with the Samsung hub, which I like because it is not always listening and spying on me, I hope. Lol!
 

Reach4

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Good call about the hydrant being closed accidentally. The goats could of course close it and they like to tamper with things. I can just weld it so the handle stays open at all times. I will also set up a "routine" that any time the pump is turned on it will automatically shut off after 5 minutes in case I accidentally forget, or the goats jump up and press the switch, etc.
So in effect, that hydrant becomes a sturdy open pipe with a hose thread on the end.
 

LCF

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The driller just came out and I shared with him the ideas I received from this forum about using the hydrant with the pump wired to a switch and a hole drilled somewhere on the poly inside the well. He really liked the idea and said that it is something they have done before so I think we are going to move forward with it. Thanks very much for the advice and ideas!
 

Reach4

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I think a hole below the frost line would be good too.
 
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