Hidden shut-off valve (and can a plumber find it?)

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Sven3B

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Short version:
I have a simple question: Can a plumber help me find my main water shut-off valve?

Just to preempt: I'm not really looking for suggestions on where my main water shut-off valve is. I've already done a bunch of research on that and looked everywhere. What I want to know is whether a plumber would have some way of deducing where it is beyond just knowing where they usually are.

Long version:
I bought a recently renovated house a few years ago. I have to do some work that requires turning off my water, but I cannot find the shut-off valve anywhere. There is a meter in an underground box in the yard, and the city's / 'curbside' shut-off is in there, but I'm not legally supposed to use that. Based on one suggestion, I asked the city (Tampa, FL) whether they have 'house-side' shut-offs in the same box as the meter, just on the opposite side of the curbside shut-off, and they told me they do not.

I've followed every recommendation for how to find my shut-off. There is no basement. There is nothing under any sink besides the individual valves. The pipe going into the water heater disappears into the wall without any valve. I've walked the line from the outdoor meter to my house looking to see if there was another underground box - if there is it is good and buried. I've walked the perimeter of the house; there is nothing.

I contacted the city to see if there were plans for the house (either the original plans or the renovation). The original plans are not on file, and the renovation makes no mention of the shut-off.

I checked my home inspection. There is a box for the main shut-off, and it does instruct the inspector to note the location, but he did not. The only comment is 'inspected.' (I suspect that was untrue, or he just looked at the city's shut-off).

So at this point, I am left with three possibilities that I see: 1) there is no house-side shut-off, 2) it is buried underground, and 3) the people who renovated obscured it behind drywall, some fixture, or something like that.

So what I want to know is: Before I start cutting holes in my drywall in the most likely locations, hoping to get lucky, or digging up my yard to track the whole pipe from meter to house, do I have anything to gain from calling a plumber? Will a plumber be able to figure out where it is (or whether it exists) without cutting hopeful holes? Or would they just say "usually, they'd be here, here, or here" but there's no way of knowing without breaking some eggs?

I know where the likely spots are, and I can cut holes in the drywall there myself; I don't want to waste a plumber's time (and my money) to get that answer. So I figured it would be good to ask generally before hiring someone to ask specifically.

I appreciate any thoughts!
 

James Henry

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As I stated in a previous post, I worked for the water department for a while and some home owners meters have consumer shut offs and some don't, sometimes a home owner would contact us to turn the water off at the meter because they couldn't find their shut off and they needed to do some plumbing work or they had a leak but it's not a crime to shut your water off, its a crime to turn it on after the city has shut it off because you didn't pay your bill. If you call the water department and tell them you want to turn your water off they'll probably say "no problem"or they'll come out and do it.
One more thing. There may be a shut off valve buried in the dirt inside the meter box on your side of the meter, I would do a search their first, but a word of caution, it may be defective and you need to be prepared if it fails. Also it would be a good time to install one if you can't find it.
 

Terry

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It helps to know what year the original home was built and whether it has a crawl space or it's on a concrete slab.
How many stories, and does it have a garage or a carport. One story or two story.

It normally take me very little time to find shutoffs when I'm there. Each decade and style of home has their own clues.
 
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Nathan901

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I did service plumbing in Florida for 7 years, and have gone through this investigation many times. Older houses aren’t always plumbed with a main shutoff valve in all actuality, but there is a few tricks to help you look in the most likely areas. Keep in mind if your home has a copper or steel water service, a plumber with the correct pipe locator wand can locate and trace the pipe to the house in under an hour.

The first thing I would do upon walking the property is note all the locations of your outside hose bibbs. Many times, a hose Bibb is installed where the main water lines enters the home, or very close to simply because it is the easiest location for one to be installed during construction.

Another thing is that many plumbers didn’t like to dig ditches, so water services are often laid in ditches next to your sewer main. If you have any ground level clean outs visible, and it happens to be near a hose bibb, you can almost wager money your water main enters the house there as well.

Your main water won’t enter your house more than a foot or two deep it is a slab on grade home. Many times I find a buried shutoff valve a few feet off the house on the main line. Some plumbers didnt think of the next guy very much during installs
 
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Sven3B

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To answer Terry's questions:
The house was built in 1960.
It is one story.
Concrete slab.
It had a garage, but the previous owners turned it into a bedroom and bathroom. The water heater and air handler are in a utility room off of it, so there's a high chance the valve was there somewhere (although, on the other hand, it is the opposite side of the house from the meter).

For James Henry - I dug around in the box a little bit and didn't see anything. But, as I mentioned, the water department told me they do not have house-side valves in their meter boxes. They will come shut-off water (I had my outside/irrigation water shut off because there was leak), but unless it's an emergency (in which case a fee applies), it's a sort of 'when we get to it' arrangement. Which is fine for getting it shut-off before I do a job; not so great for when I want it turned back on.
 

Sven3B

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However, as noted, my question is not so much 'where do you think this thing is?'

It's "is there any point in me calling out a plumber to find it?" ie Is a plumber on site going to be able to deduce the location any better than narrowing it down to a few likely general areas (which I have already done, and had confirmed by your posts)?
 

James Henry

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Did you ask the city if it was alright to turn the water off yourself? if not I would, when I worked for the city they were very understanding when someone wanted to shut the water off themselves. If you had a major leak and needed to shut it off they wouldn't say a word.
 

Terry

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In 1960 there was most likely a shutoff valve underground on the main water line with a ground stop key located pretty much in-line with the front hosebib on the front of the house.
I never touch those. If connected to 60 year old galvanized pipe, anything you do could break it and then you're stuck with replacing the line right away.

I would pick up a meter wrench.

How to locate pipes underground with my awesome pipe witching video done after losing 42 pounds in six weeks and going through two major surgeries with chemo and radiation. I plan on making a better video soon as this one I'm a bit embarrassed about. I look like death warmed over.

 
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William S.

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. . . How to locate pipes underground with my awesome pipe witching video . . .

This led to some interesting internet searching, as I'd never heard of witching/dowsing.

The way you look in the video is fine -- it's the truth of what you went through. Congratulations on being a survivor, and may you have many more years of water witching ahead!
 

Terry

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When I first heard about witching for pipes, I went home and told the wife. She worked for a water department and wasn't impressed. She told me her crew always witched for location before they used a backhoe on the road. They had a nice store bought tool for that with a handle and bearings to the the rod portion could swing freely.
Darn, and I was thinking all the way home that I had something that would surprise her.

Last Summer I showed some laborers how it was done. It's pretty cool when you put the wires in someone else's hands and watch their expression when the wires start moving.

I've put back on the 42 pounds I lost in 2010.
 

Jeff H Young

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Florida houses a little diferant the few ive seen as I visit there but havent worked on them. Most houses from 1960 are what I call ding bat or cracker jack super basic but the main might not have 90 d up out of ground with a shut off valve and hose bib . but if you have a bib somewhat in line or on front of house there might be sov below it and just underground . I shut water off at meter never asked , and a customer valve at meter is common but just as common or more often there is no customer shut off near meter. It would be nice to have a shut off at street and another at the house but Iusualy put one only at the house with a t upstream for irigation with a cap or valve there as well
 

Jeff H Young

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In 1960 there was most likely a shutoff valve underground on the main water line with a ground stop key located pretty much in-line with the front hosebib on the front of the house.
I never touch those. If connected to 60 year old galvanized pipe, anything you do could break it and then you're stuck with replacing the line right away.

I would pick up a meter wrench.

How to locate pipes underground with my awesome pipe witching video done after losing 42 pounds in six weeks and going through two major surgeries with chemo and radiation. I plan on making a better video soon as this one I'm a bit embarrassed about. I look like death warmed over.

 

Mary Young

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Florida houses a little diferant the few ive seen as I visit there but havent worked on them. Most houses from 1960 are what I call ding bat or cracker jack super basic but the main might not have 90 d up out of ground with a shut off valve and hose bib . but if you have a bib somewhat in line or on front of house there might be sov below it and just underground . I shut water off at meter never asked , and a customer valve at meter is common but just as common or more often there is no customer shut off near meter. It would be nice to have a shut off at street and another at the house but Iusualy put one only at the house with a t upstream for irigation with a cap or valve there as well
Hi Jeff, I named my brother Jeff my dad let me, anyway I am really really happy to see that it is common to see a customer shut off valve at the water meter box on the street. If I am understanding this right. I am so desperate that I could be reading into this. The thing is I have a leak well maybe the meter is malfunctioning like it did last summer and flooded the street which I knew nothing about because it's on the next block. It's about 250 or 300 ft away with the pipe going through the neighbor's yard in back of me. Anyway I did the toilet test the flapper I replaced the flapper elicit and that didn't help. But the point is when I look at my meter the leak indicator is spinning and the water department said I'm losing 1 gallon every 10 minutes. I asked him what that red gate valve was inside the meter box opposite of the shut-off valve of the county that I won't touch. He said that is your water shut-off valve for your house. Well it's not a house it's a mobile home and it's a 1999. But my point is what good would it do me to shut off the water to my house when the water shut-off valve is all the way at the meter where the counties shut off valve is? You'll have to excuse the way I talk. It's about 2 p.m. here in Arizona and it's getting hotter by the second and I need to work on the swamp cooler today. I looked for that water shut off valve for the house all week. I found things I didn't want to find because this place was owned by Navajo Indians. And I really don't want to go digging anymore. I'd like to do these tests but it just doesn't make any sense to me in my mind. Last night I learned that water meters are only expected to last 15 to 20 years. Another factor is that the water company came out and fixed my meter Last Summer because the neighbor on the next block complained of his driveway being flooded by my meter but he didn't know it was mine and it was going on for over 20 days. They won't admit to fixing it but he said they did fix it. I wish they would have told me and refunded me the money that was going down the street. Doesn't say much for their integrity and I really don't like giving money to bad companies.
 

Jeff H Young

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Hi Jeff, I named my brother Jeff my dad let me, anyway I am really really happy to see that it is common to see a customer shut off valve at the water meter box on the street. If I am understanding this right. I am so desperate that I could be reading into this. The thing is I have a leak well maybe the meter is malfunctioning like it did last summer and flooded the street which I knew nothing about because it's on the next block. It's about 250 or 300 ft away with the pipe going through the neighbor's yard in back of me. Anyway I did the toilet test the flapper I replaced the flapper elicit and that didn't help. But the point is when I look at my meter the leak indicator is spinning and the water department said I'm losing 1 gallon every 10 minutes. I asked him what that red gate valve was inside the meter box opposite of the shut-off valve of the county that I won't touch. He said that is your water shut-off valve for your house. Well it's not a house it's a mobile home and it's a 1999. But my point is what good would it do me to shut off the water to my house when the water shut-off valve is all the way at the meter where the counties shut off valve is? You'll have to excuse the way I talk. It's about 2 p.m. here in Arizona and it's getting hotter by the second and I need to work on the swamp cooler today. I looked for that water shut off valve for the house all week. I found things I didn't want to find because this place was owned by Navajo Indians. And I really don't want to go digging anymore. I'd like to do these tests but it just doesn't make any sense to me in my mind. Last night I learned that water meters are only expected to last 15 to 20 years. Another factor is that the water company came out and fixed my meter Last Summer because the neighbor on the next block complained of his driveway being flooded by my meter but he didn't know it was mine and it was going on for over 20 days. They won't admit to fixing it but he said they did fix it. I wish they would have told me and refunded me the money that was going down the street. Doesn't say much for their integrity and I really don't like giving money to bad companies.
Correct Mary , a shut off at house wont help a broken pipe in yard or meter it will still leak
So here is how this works when you have a water meter. if the pipe feeding the water meter breaks water gushes out but meter doesn't move that piping belongs to the water provider and is their problem to fix. if the water pipe breaks on your side of meter then its your problem and its your water because it was delivered to your pipes and your responsibility to repair. I would look at bill closely and if you used a lot more water explain to water company they might forgive part of bill
 

Mary Young

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Correct Mary , a shut off at house wont help a broken pipe in yard or meter it will still leak
So here is how this works when you have a water meter. if the pipe feeding the water meter breaks water gushes out but meter dosent move that piping belongs to the water provider and is thier problem to fix. if the water pipe breaks on your side of meter then its your problem and its your water because it was delivered to your pipes and your responceability to repair. I would look at bill closely and if you used a lot more water explain to water company they might forgive part of bill
Arizona water company came out Monday and took my old meter out and put in a new one. The leak indicater is still spinning at about the same rate. I'd like to shut off the water to the house at the house but I can't find where to do it. Unless it's under the mobile home. It doesn't make any sense to me that I can shut off the water to the house 300 feet away. I don't know where it's leaking, I was hoping it was a malfunctioning meter but since the new one is doing the same thing.....
 

Reach4

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Unless it's under the mobile home.
Sounds like it would be worth looking there. Would that be hard to do?

Find somebody who can crawl under with a bright light. Not only locate a shutoff, but to look for a wet spot.
 

Jeff H Young

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shut it off at street Mary you don't want to be paying for water! only turn it on when you need it. until you get around to fixing it
 
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