TEXAS FOLKS - Time to react.

[Reach4]

Even if every farmer and rancher had wind turbines on every available inch of property, there still would not be enough turbines to supply the power needed.

During really cold weather, there is often dead calm.

I expect that is part of why my cost per KWH is up. I think the wind contributes a lot of power in the summer peaks-- usually.

 

[wwhitney]

Even if every farmer and rancher had wind turbines on every available inch of property, there still would not be enough turbines to supply the power needed.

You're probably off by a factor of 10, at least in terms of energy production. Not that anyone would propose using only wind for the entire grid, nor that it's fair of me to ignore the storage issues.

Some numbers (just went with first google hit, may not be the best source or accurate):

900 million acres of farmland in the US (https://www.statista.com/statistics/196104/total-area-of-land-in-farms-in-the-us-since-2000/)
3.9 petaWh 2019 US electricity usage (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-electricity.php)
35% US average wind turbine capacity factor (http://css.umich.edu/factsheets/wind-energy-factsheet)
64 acres/MW nameplate wind turbine spacing density (https://sciencing.com/places-wind-turbines-produce-electricity-5159049.html)

3.9 petaWh/8760 (hrs/year) = 445 GW average consumption
445,000 MW * 64 acres/MW / (0.35 capacity factor) = 81 million acres

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Lol! 81 million acres of land would take about every inch of available space we have. Then we still would only have power when the wind blows and it is not too cold to turn them on.

 

[wwhitney]

81 million acres is the area density and represents less than 10% of US farmland. The direct used land (that could no longer be farmed) is around 1% of that, or a million acres.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Valveman]

It still doesn't matter how many acres of wind turbines they put up, they only work when the wind blows and it is not too cold to turn them on. Still going to need enough real generators to supply the entire grid during times the wind is not blowing. Kind of like having a solar powered car. You could only use it when the sun is shining. Lol!

 

[Jadziedzic]

I fondly remember the days of nuclear power that was going to be "too cheap to meter". If research on nuclear power generation had been allotted a small portion of all the tax breaks spent on "green" energy we'd have far safer and less-polluting alternatives available today. "More nukes, less kooks" as they used to say

I've already done my part for the environment by paying out of my own pocket for 9.9kWh of solar electric generation capacity on my roof - tax subsidized, of course. It will help charge my wife's new Volkswagen ID.4 EV - also tax subsidized.

 

[wwhitney]

It still doesn't matter how many acres of wind turbines they put up, they only work when the wind blows

True.

and it is not too cold to turn them on.

As I understand it, Texas's problem with wind generation is not fundamental to the technology. Wind works fine in cold climates. The problem in Texas is that they didn't anticipate the possibility of it getting this cold, so they didn't take the installation measures necessary to keep wind working in cold climates (e.g. blade heaters to deal with icing).

I'm just trying to separate your accurate criticisms of wind power (it's not dispatchable) from your inaccurate ones (there's not enough land). I'm not particularly pro wind, but it has its place in the generation mix.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Sarg]

On a brighter note ...... It's delightful to be at the end of the rainbow gorging myself on all the electricity I want in the Northeast and let the next generation worry about where it will come from ........ which is actually optimistic for a negative fellow like me ...... I really doubt the republic will last through the next generation's lifetime.
( I'm gonna go turn a couple more LED lights on. )

 

[Valveman]

I fondly remember the days of nuclear power that was going to be "too cheap to meter". If research on nuclear power generation had been allotted a small portion of all the tax breaks spent on "green" energy we'd have far safer and less-polluting alternatives available today. "More nukes, less kooks" as they used to say

I've already done my part for the environment by paying out of my own pocket for 9.9kWh of solar electric generation capacity on my roof - tax subsidized, of course. It will help charge my wife's new Volkswagen ID.4 EV - also tax subsidized.

Waste is the issue with nuclear. I saw some interesting stuff about making batteries with nuclear waste. If they ever figure out what to do with the waste nuclear would be a miracle energy.

Solar for my house is something I have considered. Storage is still my issue. I was quoted 18K for enough batteries to last a couple normal cloudy days. But it would have taken probably 5 times than many to last through this cold spell. Could always fire up a generator if the batteries didn’t hold out. At least this way I would be in control of my own power and they couldn’t just shut me off for a few hours at a time, which turned into more than a few hours for many people.

True.
As I understand it, Texas's problem with wind generation is not fundamental to the technology. Wind works fine in cold climates. The problem in Texas is that they didn't anticipate the possibility of it getting this cold, so they didn't take the installation measures necessary to keep wind working in cold climates (e.g. blade heaters to deal with icing).

I'm just trying to separate your accurate criticisms of wind power (it's not dispatchable) from your inaccurate ones (there's not enough land). I'm not particularly pro wind, but it has its place in the generation mix.
Cheers, Wayne

Actually, I have friends who have been working on those wind turbines for years. So, I hear all the stories about how short of a time the blades, bearings, oil, and other things last. The first turbines they brought in were made for cold weather climates. They had to leave the electric panel doors open to keep them from shutting off on overheat. We have both extremes, so they would have to design them better.

I drive by a hundred-acre site of old blades piled as high as they could. The sign has been changed twice over the years saying, “These blades are scheduled for recycling.” That company is never coming back. Those blades are too expensive to dispose of. It will turn into another super fund site we taxpayers will pay for, just like we did to purchase and install those turbines to start with. Plus, we are subsidizing every MW they make by 23 bucks. There are a lot of companies and government officials getting rich at the consumers expense.

I can drive for 5 hours and never get out from under wind generators. It is hard for me to imagine doing this to every inch of every farm, just to have power only when the wind blows. The best land for generators is a long distance from the populated areas that need it. So, over half of the electricity is lost in those long transmission lines just getting power from the generators to the point of use.

I could go on. But once people have it in their head that wind energy is free energy, it is hard to get any facts to enter.

On a brighter note ...... It's delightful to be at the end of the rainbow gorging myself on all the electricity I want in the Northeast and let the next generation worry about where it will come from ........ which is actually optimistic for a negative fellow like me ...... I really doubt the republic will last through the next generation's lifetime.
( I'm gonna go turn a couple more LED lights on. )

Lol! I too am a short timer and shouldn’t worry how the young survive their own ignorance. However, I have a new granddaughter. I would like for her to be able to live in a world that isn’t falling apart. So, I will go out kicking and screaming about things I think need changing.

 

[Sarg]

Perhaps I'll just get another dog ........... they are the best love money can buy.

 

[Jadnashua]

The answer to this all is a viable balance of technologies, research, and infrastructure.
Texas is the only lower 48-state that chose to not participate in the grid, so there's no way to augment their power across state lines like everywhere else.
The big energy surge is historically during the summer during the cooling season and many plants are shut for maintenance across the winter, so the full complement could not be brought online even if they wanted. With the grid down, things also froze up, keeping them out of the picture.
We hopefully learn from our mistakes and future generations of wind turbines will be better. Solar cells are now much more efficient than those produced even a couple of years ago. The only way things get better are with experience and research. Compared to traditional power plants, most renewables are infants. Let them mature, and learn from our mistakes.
The Arctic is warming far faster than the rest of the world. This is disrupting the polar vortex, allowing these extreme weather events to become more common. This will and has been an issue in the summer, too where there were nearly 300 high temperature records set in the USA last year. Putting your head in the sand won't help.
Battery tech is improving, too. Storing heat in salts works, where you could store enough to handle a few days in a fairly small volume. You can also store cold in ice.
Making these technologies readily available and volume would make them part of the whole energy picture at more reasonable prices. The cost of batteries is way down from even five years ago. The Great Salt Lake is a treasure trove of some of the materials needed to make them and a plant is being built.

 

[Valveman]

Agree. But will any of this matter if the population of the earth doubles in the next 50 years? We have to get our priorities straight. Reduce the earth's population by half in the next 50 years, and none of these things will matter. Our grandchildren could have a forested planet, oceans full of fish, land with a multitude of animals, water to drink, food to eat, and all the energy, renewable and not, that they need. We just have to quit making more parasites to invest the earth. If other life forms have been watching our planet from afar for the last 100 years or so, they are saying "the parasites on that planet are about to destroy the host". They will have seen a lush green planet turn brown and murky. Eventually it was covered with huge poles that had three big blades spinning on top. There is a point where the host will not be able to recover, and I am afraid we are getting close to that point.

 

[wwhitney]

Reduce the earth's population by half in the next 50 years

The current world median age is ~30 years old, and the current life expectancy is ~73 years. So barring a mass die-off, that goal would require stopping all births immediately. An unusual policy proposal.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Drick]

Stop the government subsides for things that do not work and let the market work out which is best.

Couldn't agree with this more. Lets start with the oil and gas subsidies!

 

[WorthFlorida]

Bottom line is this country and every other country in the world need a solid and robust backbone of energy production 24/7. Right now it is fossil fuel and nuclear plants. All this renewable stuff is for the green people and politicians to look good and to say "look what we did to save the world". Just this week someone came by my home to push for solar panels. Apparently, they do all the upfront cost and install, then pay you a percentage back off your electric bill. I wanted no part of this, however, I see more solar panels going up here in Florida. A solar farm is less than a mile from my home. If you visit Hawaii, they are everywhere. Costco, in Maui, covered its parking lot so all parking slots are under the shade. Costco and others have building size refrigerators and freezers that take a big chunk of energy. Really what it is doing is taking some of the load off the power plants during peak use times. Unfortunately, everyone thinks, renewable energy it will replace fossil fuels, it doesn't, it only reduces its consumption.

 

[Reach4]

Just this week someone came by my home to push for solar panels. Apparently, they do all the upfront cost and install, then pay you a percentage back off your electric bill.

I know people who had them put up about 12 years ago, but rather than taking the deal you were offered, they decided to purchase. It has paid off well, and there is seldom a non-zero electric bill now. Things could change, of course, and the deal differs from state to state. In this particular case, I think they use "net metering", which is advantageous to the home owner. In other states you may sell power at wholesale, and buy your entire usage at retail.

 

[Jadnashua]

Research is finding new materials and techniques. This was reported last month

"
Qinye Bao at East China Normal University in Shanghai and his colleagues added capsaicin to these ultra-thin perovskite solar cells during the manufacturing process. Bao and his team suspected that capsaicin might have an energy-boosting effect because it can free up electrons that can go on to carry charge.

They tested the capsaicin-treated solar cells in the laboratory by exposing them to artificial light to simulate sunlight and measuring the electrical current running through them.



Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...spicy-boosts-solar-panel-cells/#ixzz6mn3dAhAN

Improved the efficiency almost 3%, which is really a big improvement in the scheme of things.

 

[TJanak]

For extreme but relatively short duration events such as this one, and hurricanes, etc., the most reliable source of backup energy for my family appears to be a generator and big propane tank(s). So that is what I will be researching between now and summer. How long can I store energy in the form of propane in a tank? Nearly indefinitely I would imagine.

Unless someone can show me a solar system that will run my 3 ton heat pump for a week for similar money. It was overcast every day since Sunday except one.

 

[Reach4]

Unless someone can show me a solar system that will run my 3 ton heat pump for a week for similar money. It was overcast every day since Sunday except one.

The solar systems normally put on houses will not provide power to you if the utility power goes down. It could be bright and sunny. There is no bypass mode which lets them work independently.

 

[Jadziedzic]

At least one company - Solar Edge - makes an inverter that has the ability to power a select number of individual circuits in the house even when the grid is down - but of course the sun must be shining! Those circuits would be contained within a separate sub-panel fed directly from a special output of the inverter; the main output of the inverter is still tied to the grid ahead of the main panel and like Reach4 noted, automatically disconnects when utility power is not present.

This inverter model also has the ability to tie into a Tesla PowerWall so those select circuits are backed up by battery power. This would be a great solution for areas such as the south that don't have to deal with the possibility of extended duration snowy/hazy days. Since we have natural gas here in New Hampshire, and an infrastructure that was designed for cold weather, I opted for a natural gas-powered whole-house standby generator instead.