17yo WH in apt with multiple problems

[citydweller3033]

Hi, here is my situation. I am a renter in a 2nd floor studio apartment. The gas water heater is in a closet, with a louvered door. The WH closet is about 2 feet away from my carpeted living area where I have my sofa and study space.

I'm renting here for 18 more months (third renewal) while I save up for a home purchase.

The hot water is reliable and water pressure is good. The flue looks mostly OK.

I am getting lots of rumbling from the unit and it has been disturbing my work and my sleep (I've been work-from-home since the start of the pandemic.) The noise gets worse in winter, and this winter is worse than last winter. My friends/guests think the noise isn't right, plus it goes on for an hour each time the unit runs. There are loud bangs, like a big piece of sediment clunking around, at least a few times a week, and it shakes the floor. (No pattern as to when that happens either.)

Landlord says nothing is wrong. They got my complaint about the noise, did a visual inspection, watched it run, said nothing is needed and that it's "just old."

I learned more about what I'm looking at and got scared. Found the sticker, the unit was built in 2004 and was only warrantied for 6 years. The city came out and took a look. The city agreed there are some problems.

Here's the concerns.

1) Age of unit + little sign of previous maintenance being done on it. I was worrying about a unit this old holding up much longer.

2) Noise and banging. WH runs about 1 hour after doing dishes, runs about 1 hour after a shower or bath. Constant rumbling, some shaking. Sometimes sounds like a big piece of sediment breaks loose and hits the side of the tank, big loud bang from the unit when that happens. The city wrote a citation for the excessive noise, said the WH is not properly maintained. They said they at a minimum want it to be flushed.

3) Corroded water shut-off valve. The city wrote a citation for this.

4) High likely of damaging my property if it starts to leak or flood. It's just a few feet away from my carpeted living space and furniture.

5) High likelihood of damaging the apartment below. During a normal year I am out-of-town for a week every month. I am also gone for a month around the holidays. No one would be here to call in a leak, until the neighbor's apartment starts to get water.

6) Questionable TPR piping. Goes up, then horizontal, 2 elbows, up again, 2 elbows, then into a DWV which we can not see. City says that this is typical in 60 year old multi-family buildings here. They said the setup is grandfathered even if I get a new WH. No good solutions. This is an interior closet.
- Question: If they insist on keeping the same WH and try to fix it up, should they take out this current TPR and replace it?
- Question: If they were to re-pipe this, not sure if there is any good solution for where to drain it.
- Question: If an installer came and put in a new unit, not sure what they would do.

7) Orange flames in the burner. Some seem high and lapping. I have seen them stay within their confines but there are singe marks on the outer porcelain to the left of the burner access (not sure if I'm calling that by the correct name.)

8) No pan or drain below the unit.

Please give me your thoughts. First my concern was about the age of the unit and the possibility it might start to leak because its old. Then I saw the shut-off valve. Then I got concerned about the burner. Next I read about what TPR valves do and I really don't feel good about how this one looks.

I would like to convince the landlord to buy a new unit. If they insist on repairing this one, the city says they have to flush it, eliminate the noise, and replace the gate valve.

Thanks!

 

[Terry]

Apartment built in 1960.
I find it odd that on a second floor unit that they couldn't figure out how to drain the relief lave downward.
Where I am, most condos require replacement of a water heater at 10 years. That's for condos though, where there are multiple owners. An apartment has one owner, so it's their big risk as to what they figure their insurance will cover if disaster strikes.
Flushing a water heater entails hooking a hose to the drain and running some water out of it. At 17 years, there may be some pretty solid lime inside the tank.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[citydweller3033]

Thanks, Terry. Yep, the building was built in 1960.

I think the city looked on the sediment as a problem because they realized that the noise is right here in my living space.

If this unit was down in a basement somewhere, I wouldn't be nearly as concerned about flooding or about the noise.

That TPR valve though, from what I read, they can corrode and lime up when they're piped upward. So that would be a problem no matter where this unit is.

 

[Terry]

That TPR valve though, from what I read, they can corrode and lime up when they're piped upward. So that would be a problem no matter where this unit is.

Normally where the drain for the T&P is too high, we install a 125 PSI relief that drains downward, and on the water heater, keep the 150 PSI and run it to within six inches of the floor.
We assume that the 125 PSI kicks in before the one on the water heater.

 

[Bannerman]

Not worth spending a dime attempting repairs on a 17-year old unit.

If the water is somewhat hard and not softened, the tank is most likely substantially filled with hardness minerals. Minerals that have accumulated on the bottom of the tank will act as an insulator and will restrict water flow between the bulk of the water in the tank and the heat source below. A small amount of water that finds its way to the bottom of the tank will quickly turn to steam which will expand and will pop and bang against the tank walls while attempting to rise through the accumulation.

If that is corrosion on the vent piping, I would be concerned with possible CO leakage into my living space.

 

[citydweller3033]

At first I thought it was corrosion too, but the city inspector didn't have anything bad to say about it. So my other thought is it might be some kind of insulating material.

CO readings are zero. I've got two CO detectors from two different brands... digital readout on the Kidde unit.

 

[citydweller3033]

Normally where the drain for the T&P is too high, we install a 125 PSI relief that drains downward, and on the water heater, keep the 150 PSI and run it to within six inches of the floor.
We assume that the 125 PSI kicks in before the one on the water heater.

Terry, this sounds good but I am not able to picture where you're placing that second relief valve (the 125PSI valve.). I think you're saying to use the manufacturer's TPR spot for the 150PSI valve and pipe it down, so I understand that part. Thanks!

 

[Terry]

Terry, this sounds good but I am not able to picture where you're placing that second relief valve (the 125PSI valve.). I think you're saying to use the manufacturer's TPR spot for the 150PSI valve and pipe it down, so I understand that part. Thanks!

You would need to cut in a tee at a high enough point so that you could drain it downwards by gravity.
Either that or open the wall and find a lower point. It's right next to an electrical box though, so that would worry me. Hitting a hidden wire could be scary.

 

[citydweller3033]

Got it, I think.

I would guess that if we start fresh with a new tank, and religiously remove the TPR valve every year for inspection or replacement, that it would substantially reduce the risk of a relief valve clog due to corrosion or lime. Even if the piping (though not ideal) remains the same. Just wanted to put that thought out there in case anyone wants to respond to it.

 

[Bannerman]

There was a great picture posted by Ditttohead on the water softener forum some time ago, but I couldn't locate it.
Here is one from an online search showing mineral scale accumulation. A regular flushing routine is a great preventative measure, but once this severe ...

The accumulation and corrosion on the shut-off valve appear to be mineral deposits and corrosion caused by seepage around the valve stem. A wire brush will likely clean it up and tightening the stem nut may stop further seepage.

If the TPR happens to leak, water will accumulate in the upward discharge line and can stagnate. Any leakage of stagnated water back into the tank will contaminate the water you use.

Since you can't see the end of the discharge line, you can't monitor if the TPR has discharged or has been leaking.

 

[citydweller3033]

All this help is great. Thanks.

 

[citydweller3033]

You would need to cut in a tee at a high enough point so that you could drain it downwards by gravity.
Either that or open the wall and find a lower point. It's right next to an electrical box though, so that would worry me. Hitting a hidden wire could be scary.

Terry you've got to forgive me for being a newbie to this, it is taking some time and thinking for me to understand.

I found your other post about this from a few years ago.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....er-over-temp-t-p-valve-piping-question.57693/

So it sounds like you're saying the 125PSI TPR valve (the second valve) is going to be on the cold water intake line. That is what I didn't understand the first time. So if the water tank builds up pressure, there is going to be backwards flow into the cold water intake line, and that's when the 125PSI valve will open up?

What I don't understand yet is that the water discharging from the 125PSI valve (which is going to drain downwards) still has to be piped somewhere. Is it going to be cooler water because it is coming from the cold water line? So maybe it is safer for it to drain onto the floor? I feel like maybe the same problem still exists in that we don't have any low drain to route that discharge whether it's coming from the 125PSI valve or from the 150PSI valve.

Yes, it sounds like the ideal solution is to open up the wall, but like you said, that could be rough going.

 

[citydweller3033]

And now I get it. You are saying that the cold water intake line might be at a taller height than the DWV connection, so that 125PSI discharge valve could use gravity to go into the DWV. Right?

The only catch is, with my situation, the DWV connection is at a taller height than the cold water intake line. The DWV connection is actually the highest thing in this setup.

 

[Terry]

And so you would add a pipe that is higher than the drain off of the cold water supply.

 

[citydweller3033]

And so you would add a pipe that is higher than the drain off of the cold water supply.

I understand! The light bulb is coming on.

So it is okay to pipe the cold water higher just so you can have that high spot from which to add the valve.

The 125PSI valve goes from the cold intake, into the DWV, but now it is flowing downhill as it should be.

The 150 PSI valve either also goes into the DWV but uphill.... or..... it drains straight down to the wood floor or the pan (with a 6" air gap) which is OK because it is not expected it will ever open. I think I read you would choose the latter.

Thank you for being patient with a slow learner. This is the first time in a week that I feel like there's a decent solution.

 

[citydweller3033]

New Bradford-White water heater is getting installed right now. It's our usual building super who is doing the work, and he's worked here for years -- good guy, real thorough.

That DWV line high on the wall -- "We're not sure where that goes." "Yours is only the second one we've seen that was connected to that."

They're just going to put a straight down pipe off the TPR. I think I'm okay with that.

 

[citydweller3033]

Here's the new one, it's nice!

Not a sound other than the burner!

The guys did an awesome job changing it out, with no mess and no noise. My cat slept through it all.

Those SharkBite connectors are cool. Probably saved the crew a lot of time.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Wow. That flys in Ohio for T&P? Dump on the closet floor pretty ghetto does the drain pan dump on floor as well?. but who cares just rental . We use a watts 210 valve when a T&P won't work I upgraded 300 apartments with substandard water heater installations . Did a few dozen of the 210s. No dirt leg on gas supply>

 

[citydweller3033]

Good points Jeff.

Its an interior closet, and the city said the old arrangement (no pan, no floor drain) is grandfathered in. I don't know if they would grandfather the gas line setup.

The old T&P pipe actually piped uphill and no one has a clear idea what the pipe was that it was draining into, they can't locate its termination point below.

Because the city opened a ticket about the water heater, the same inspector has to come back next week and sign off on the completed work. We'll see what he says.

 

[citydweller3033]

Jeff I'm impressed that you got a contract for 300 repairs like that. Someone in management must have wanted to reduce risk.

This landlord has 6 buildings built exactly like this one, so probably 150 units. There's 40 studio apartments in this building. Three floors.