Black specks in bathtub please help!

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Jeff H Young

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some one needs to approve the cost to mitigate this and sounds like no one cares or has deep enough budget to look into this maybe it sounds like a petty complaint
 

Ry01

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As there has been no lab analysis of the particles, we can only speculate on their source.

Regardless of the remaining service life, if the exsisting anode rod is reacting in the water to cause particles to be released, then replacing the anode rod with one made from another material may resolve the issue. Alternate anode materials exsist as one type is not appropriate for all water conditions. The reaction may not be with the water itself but could be due to the Chloramine (chlorine and ammonia) added to Toronto water instead of plain Chlorine.

With regard to cleaning, it is generally simpler and less costly to remove contaminants and minerals from the water that cause scaling and sediment before they enter the water heater. A water softener can soften the incoming water to remove calcium and Magnesium minerals that mainly cause scale accumulation. A filtration system utilizing Catalytic Carbon is typically utilized to remove Chloramine as well as many other chemicals and contaminants .

Unless a majority of unit owners including Directors are recognizing the issue themselves and are demanding for the problem to be corrected at point of entry, your condo BoD is unlikely to consider addressing an issue they perceive is not an actual problem that is needed to be addressed by the condo corporation.

At the moment I only know one other owner that said she noticed the issue in her sink after I mentioned it to her. I haven't had a chance to speak to anyone else cause of the whole Covid mess. I can try to bring up switching the anode rod to a different material but I have a feeling they won't reply as usual.

When I asked if the anode rod was replaced during the recent cleaning, I was told the plumber cleaned the anode rod and that it will be replaced during next clean up.

So if no one else complains about this issue, there's nothing I can do at all to have them actually look into the issue?

From reviewing the emails exchanged between me and the manager, it basically looks like he ignores my emails until a plumbing service comes up (ie. replacing PRV) and he would reply telling me what service is going to take place and hope that fixes my issue...

I've been looking to find a company that can test what the black specks are but all the ones I can find only test for e.coli, and metals. Does anyone happen to know a lab that can test this?

I apologize that this is starting to turn into a discussion on dealing with condo management haha.


EDIT: From reading another post on the forum, I see suggestions on getting the water tested for Manganese and Iron?
 
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Ry01

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You might have better luck getting the building management to filter the hot water with a special filter. They would want a 3-valve bypass and a pair of pressure gauges. They would want the the filter and other hot water stuff insulated, but they would want to be able to change the cartridge.

A cartridge filter has the side effect of diagnosing how much stuff they are dealing with.

People in general have a built-in tendency to see patterns, even if they are not there. Is there an access panel that would let you see your lines to the tub, as discussed in #12?

So when I first reached out to the board after being ignored by the property manager for so long, they sent a plumber to collect water samples to do a test. During that time, I spoke to the plumber briefly and he suggested cleaning the tanks and another option is to install a filter where the PRV is for the whole floor. I didn't get a chance to ask him more in details as he was in a rush.

Oh and as for the test... I was told by the property manager the test is to check for water chemistry and they'll know how to proceed once test results comes back..

Fast forwards few weeks, I received an email from the property manager saying the test results shows no bacterial contamination. I looked at the attachment included in the email and the document shows no test results, just sample collected date and drop off date.

I did a bit of digging and they took my water sample to do a private well water test with Public Health to check for total coliform and e.coli....

Furthermore, Public Health does not test city water and the test was cancelled. But the property manager was telling me there's no issue..:confused:
 

Bannerman

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I am assuming you are located within the City of Toronto proper as opposed to one of the surrounding Regional Municipalities such as Peel, York or Durham. Each RM is required to test the water they supply but the City of Toronto website states their drinking water is tested every 6 hours by their accredited lab. https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/water-environment/tap-water-in-toronto/

The link above also states 15,000 bacteriological tests on samples collected from the water distribution system annually.

Annual Water quality reports may be downloaded from:
https://www.toronto.ca/services-pay...-in-toronto/tap-water-quality-system-reports/

Because Chlorine or Chloramine is utilized to control bacteria in municipal water systems, the chlorine will also oxidize any Ferrous iron initially contained in the water, converting it to Ferric iron (solid rust particles) which is easily filtered from the water. Any Ferric iron that is not filtered by the city will typically precipitate from the water within the distribution network so the water arriving at most homes will be usually clear of iron unless there is a sudden excessive flow rate (Fire Hydrant use) or when the city flushes and cleans water mains, either of which may lead to temporary red or brown turbid water.

A condo Property Manager / Management company is hired by and is accountable to the corporation's Board of Directors. A PM's obligation is to act as the Board's agent to ensure the Board's responsibilities are fulfilled so the PM is, therefore, directed only by the BoD as a whole, not individual unit owners.

It is understandable if the debris is only observed when running the bathtub as most bathtub spouts do not incorporate an aerator whereas other faucets and some shower heads utilize aerator screens in which the debris is likely to become trapped behind.

another option is to install a filter where the PRV is for the whole floor.
If each PRV is to regulate each floor's hot water pressure, perhaps the particles are due to a breakdown of internal components within the PRV. If the PRV for your floor is only affected, you could then expect the debris to be apparent only within the units on your floor, not the entire building. I suspect the PRV is not the cause as you said the issue temporarily improved after the WH and anode rod was cleaned.

If the source of the debris is the WH or PRV, installing a suitable filter after each PRV should then eliminate the debris. You could suggest installing a filter initially on your floor as a trial to determine if it will be effective.
 
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Reach4

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If each PRV is to regulate each floor's hot water pressure, perhaps the particles are due to a breakdown of internal components within the PRV.
Would there be a PRV for the hot?
 

Bannerman

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Would there be a PRV for the hot?
I wouldn't expect so but I do anticipate there will need to be a method to balance the pressure between the Hot vs Cold water supplies on each floor. Depending on which floor Ty01 resides on, pressure balancing could be performed by booster pumps and valves vs a PRV on the hot.

A pump could also be the source of the debris but as Ry01 mentioned the plumber suggested installing a filter specifically where the PRV is located for each floor, and as this issue is affecting only the hot water, I'm assuming the plumber knows how the building's hot water system is plumbed.
 

Ry01

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I wouldn't expect so but I do anticipate there will need to be a method to balance the pressure between the Hot vs Cold water supplies on each floor. Depending on which floor Ty01 resides on, pressure balancing could be performed by booster pumps and valves vs a PRV on the hot.

A pump could also be the source of the debris but as Ry01 mentioned the plumber suggested installing a filter specifically where the PRV is located for each floor, and as this issue is affecting only the hot water, I'm assuming the plumber knows how the building's hot water system is plumbed.


A booster pump was installed last year as there were complaints of low water pressure. The black specks were present long before the pumps were installed. When the pumps were first installed, there was a large amount of debris that showed up in all water source in our unit. It clogged our kitchen sink and toilet.

My floor is the lowest floor on a zone so everything gets flushed down here from what I was told. My bathtub faucet does have an aerator. I open it pretty often to wash out any debris that's trapped in there. The debris in the aerator is harder in size and does not smear.

I'm not sure if the issue is related to my floor only or the whole building as the issue is hard to notice if you don't use the bathtub. The specks don't often appear in the sink and when I do see it, it does not smear and it just gets flushed away. I noticed it in my kitchen sink a couple of times when I was washing a white plastic bowl. I was able to see the black marks on it. It's in the standup shower as well but not often. I would maybe see 1-2 marks every periodically.

For residents that don't use the bathtub, they most likely wouldn't notice there's an issue at all. Also the severity of the issue may vary from 1 unit to the next. I'm going to try to speak to other unit owners.

I asked the PM if there's any possibility that it may be an issue with the expansion tank and I was told the expansion tank is connected to the heating/cooling system. This system is a closed loop system and nothing to do with the hot and cold water supply.

I guess what I can try next is to run a test to check for Iron and Manganese to see if there's a higher level normal of these chemical present.

Going to try to speak with board/PM again (if they'll even respond) to ask if there's any braided stainless steel lines used anywhere. I know he mentioned our building uses pex pipes and copper manifolds.
 

Ry01

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Here's how the aerator looks like normally.

Also I looked at the toilet tanks in my unit and I noticed there's a lot of black debris/sediments. I tried rubbing the debris and it left black marks all over my fingers. Is this normal? I'm wondering if this is somehow connected to the issue I'm experiencing in the bathtub.


aerator.jpg



toilet tank 1.jpg
toilet tank 2.jpg
 

Reach4

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Also I looked at the toilet tanks in my unit and I noticed there's a lot of black debris/sediments.
I expect you note that the toilet is not fed by hot water.
 

Ry01

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Hi everyone,

Sorry to revive this 5 months old thread. Unfortunately I'm still dealing with the black specks/marks showing up in the bathtub/shower. Management finally had a plumber come to do an inspection.

Management said the plumber checked the relevant common areas in the building and did not find anything that would suggest the issue is caused by the building and that he suspects the issue is coming from the rubber washers inside the bathtub faucet isolation spring check valve.

In the plumber's report, he said he found isolation stops/spring checks with rubber washers which may be deteriorating. His recommendation was to remove washers check stops at tub/shower faucet and also to service the Lawler 805 Mixer in PH (rubber check stops).

Management said they are going to do one last attempt to remedy the issue. They will replace the bathtub faucet provided I agree to not seek further redress from them on this matter.

Are isolation spring check valves and check stops the same thing? Are they just integral stops that control hot/cold water shut off?

I personally don’t think replacing bathtub faucet will do anything and this just seems like is the Board is trying to find a low cost fix (regardless if it works or not) and add terms to it so that I lose my rights to pursue an adequate fix from the Board even if the issue is caused by something that is within the Corporation’s obligation.

Here’s why I think replacing the bathtub faucet won’t fix the issue.

-During the inspection, the plumber mentioned the washers inside the integral stops may be deteriorating. However one of the stops was replaced and the other was cleaned before but the issue persists.

-Another unit of the same floor as me mentioned she noticed black specks in her sink before.

- Cleaning the water tanks made the specks/marks go away for 2-3 weeks before the specks/marks slowly came back.

-the issue is present in the standup shower as well but is very minor and not that noticeable.

-the plumber also suggested servicing the Lawler 805 Mixer in PH. I’m guessing that’s a bigger mixer located somewhere on the penthouse floor that services more than just my unit?

Thoughts on this?


Thanks!
 

Reach4

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Thoughts on this?
I would consider installing a whole-house cartridge filter for your unit. One that takes a 4.5x20 inch cartridge should have low backpressure, and will be a readily available cartridge.

Ideally there will be a 3-valve bypass around the filter, because otherwise, a filter failure would mean no water. Maybe use a PENTEK-DGD-5005-20. https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...glish/310061-pentek-dgd-series-spec-sheet.pdf

After a year, see what you collected. A place to hook a pressure gauge before and after can be useful to see if there is significant pressure drop. Obviously this will not help if the source of black stuff is inside of your unit.
 

WorthFlorida

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These black specs has nothing to do with mineral deposits in the water heater. Until there is a filter after the water heater its seems it's all a guess. I have one bathroom sink faucet I'll get black specs and it is from the aerator. I can take a tooth brush and loosen the material. Sometimes I'll see a piece sticking out at the spout. I believe it is a harmless mold since they are soft and doesn't smear. No other faucet does it since they are different. All lines are the same. CPVC and flex lines from the stop valves.

Do you see them in the dishwasher?
 

Ry01

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I would consider installing a whole-house cartridge filter for your unit. One that takes a 4.5x20 inch cartridge should have low backpressure, and will be a readily available cartridge.

Ideally there will be a 3-valve bypass around the filter, because otherwise, a filter failure would mean no water. Maybe use a PENTEK-DGD-5005-20. https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...glish/310061-pentek-dgd-series-spec-sheet.pdf

After a year, see what you collected. A place to hook a pressure gauge before and after can be useful to see if there is significant pressure drop. Obviously this will not help if the source of black stuff is inside of your unit.

Is that something that can be installed in a condo unit? I'm trying to get management to once and for all fix the problem so I just want to know their idea of replacing a bathtub faucet will do anything.
 

Ry01

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These black specs has nothing to do with mineral deposits in the water heater. Until there is a filter after the water heater its seems it's all a guess. I have one bathroom sink faucet I'll get black specs and it is from the aerator. I can take a tooth brush and loosen the material. Sometimes I'll see a piece sticking out at the spout. I believe it is a harmless mold since they are soft and doesn't smear. No other faucet does it since they are different. All lines are the same. CPVC and flex lines from the stop valves.

Do you see them in the dishwasher?

I've been cleaning the aerator pretty often. I noticed the sediments in the aerator is not exactly the same as the specks I see in the tub. The sediments in the aerator don't smudge/smear. Also a lot of times, I won't even see anything in the tub until I drain the water. That's when I see tiny black dots/smudges in the bathtub.

I don't notice this in the dishwasher.
 

Reach4

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I've been cleaning the aerator pretty often. I noticed the sediments in the aerator is not exactly the same as the specks I see in the tub. The sediments in the aerator don't smudge/smear. Also a lot of times, I won't even see anything in the tub until I drain the water. That's when I see tiny black dots/smudges in the bathtub.

I don't notice this in the dishwasher.
The dishwasher is not going to have a place for stuff to collect, right?

I forget-- did you test that this stuff burns, like bits of rubber would, when you hold a propane torch flame on it? If the stuff smears, I expect it would be affected by the heat.

Is that something that can be installed in a condo unit? I'm trying to get management to once and for all fix the problem so I just want to know their idea of replacing a bathtub faucet will do anything.
Show a photo of the shut off valve, and nearby piping, for the condo. That would give a good indication.

If you don't have your own shutoff, then I don't expect that it would be practical to install the filter.

Incidentally, flushing your WH might be helpful. Run a garden hose to a toilet. Open the drain valve full, and let a minute or so of maximum flow with the pressure on. Check the toilet bowl to see if stuff got collected. This probably needs somebody to hold the hose at the toilet, and somebody to operate the drain valve.
 

WorthFlorida

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Black specs in the toilet? Nothing to do with the WH. Dishwasher gets hot enough to dissolve or wash away the specs. At the tub, just run cold water, then just the hot to see when the specs show up. Reach had a good idea is to run the garden hose into a bucket and let the water settle. Just trying to find the source. Any specs in the ice maker bin?
 

Ry01

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The dishwasher is not going to have a place for stuff to collect, right?

I forget-- did you test that this stuff burns, like bits of rubber would, when you hold a propane torch flame on it? If the stuff smears, I expect it would be affected by the heat.


Show a photo of the shut off valve, and nearby piping, for the condo. That would give a good indication.

If you don't have your own shutoff, then I don't expect that it would be practical to install the filter.

Incidentally, flushing your WH might be helpful. Run a garden hose to a toilet. Open the drain valve full, and let a minute or so of maximum flow with the pressure on. Check the toilet bowl to see if stuff got collected. This probably needs somebody to hold the hose at the toilet, and somebody to operate the drain valve.

I didn't actually try to burn the specks. When I spoke to the plumber that came to do the inspection, he said anything that leaves a mark in the tub is rubber. He did say what the specks that don't smear was. I'm guessing it may be sediments? My main concerns are the one marks that shows up after the tub is drained. This is only with hot water.

As for the shut off valve. It's located in a tiny opening under the washroom sink. I tried my best to take a clear picture of it.

I don't have a personal water heater. The building cleaned the water tanks few months ago and the issue was gone for about 2-3 weeks before it started coming back.

Also do you happen to know if isolation spring check valves and check stops the same thing? Are they just integral stops that control hot/cold water shut off? The plumber's report and an email I received from management used those terms but I have a feeling they may be the same thing.

SOV.jpg
 

Galskdgjfal

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We are also having the same problem in our building but it is about 25% of the units reporting (maybe more of course). It definitely gets worse after a water shutdown and re-pressurization. Currently the plumber says it's from the valves going into each of the units because those are the only source of rubber but it seems amazing that it happens after a system re-pressurization largely and to so many unique units. Any further guess?
 

Terry

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We are also having the same problem in our building but it is about 25% of the units reporting (maybe more of course). It definitely gets worse after a water shutdown and re-pressurization. Currently the plumber says it's from the valves going into each of the units because those are the only source of rubber but it seems amazing that it happens after a system re-pressurization largely and to so many unique units. Any further guess?
How many water heaters? One in every unit, or one for the building?
 
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