Rusted Toilet Flange

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Hightechburrito

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Started demoing out a bathroom today and found a toilet flange with some rust on it. I need to clean it up better than the picture, but can I reuse this? I'll need to add an extension to match the height of the finished floor (new floor will be ~.25" higher than before.

One thing I noticed is that the flange was 'attached' to the subfloor with 4 nails that were bent over the outside of the flange (one of which was rusted away, top left of picture). There's no subfloor underneath most of the flange to screw it down, so I'm a little curious on what to do. Reading around a bit, it seems like this may have been common ~60 years ago (cast iron toilet flange not attached to flooring).

Also noticed the flange isn't parallel to the subfloor. The front is about .25" higher than the front. It's probably been like that for 60 years so presumably the flange seal can accommodate that?

What's the simplest way to get this back together? I'm not above hiring a plumber to replace the flange, but would prefer a quicker/simpler/cheaper fix if that's possible.

Thanks.
 

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Hightechburrito

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Looking forward to others' input, but here's what I'm thinking based on reading similar threads.

1) Install my new underlayment, keeping the cutout as close to the outer diameter of the current flange as possible. I plan on using 1/2" plywood.
2) Install the new finished flooring. I have some LVT floating flooring I'm planning on using that is 6mm thick (5mm plus attached pad). This puts the finished flooring just under 3/4" above the current subfloor.
3) Install a Danco Hydroseat on top of the current flange, using the tabs on the hydroseat to attach it to the subflooring. The wall in my picture is to the right, so I think the tabs are in the correct place that they would go into the subflooring. This will pinch the floating floor, but the toilet will do that anyway. The longest distance to any wall is 4', and the manufacturer says a 1/4" gap is enough for 100', so it should be fine.

How does this sound?

A few questions I have:
1) If the tabs for the hydroseat don't line up with where I have subflooring, should I put the screws in at a bit of an angle, or just make sure that the 1/2" plywood is under the tabs and screw into that?
2) The current flange is about .4" above the subfloor in the back, and just under .8" above in the front. This means that the iron flange will be .1" above the finished flooring in the front, and ~.4" below it in the back. Will the hydroseat sit above the finished flooring enough to clear the flange in the front, and will the wax seal fill in around .5" in the back?
 

Hightechburrito

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Another thought I had after reading more threads on cast iron flanges...

I've seen people say that a cast iron flange doesn't need to be attached to the subfloor (mine never really was, doubt those bent over nails really did anything). If that's the case, then I'd probably just use a Saniseal to install.

Which is better, leaving the cast iron unattached and using a saniseal, or using a hydroseat to attach to the flooring.

I'm thinking that with the hydroseat, if there's any deflection of the floor, then the wax seal between the hydroseat and the iron flange may get compressed and eventually leak, but the saniseal should be compliant and maintain a seal.

Thoughts?
 

Reach4

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I think your assessment sounds really good.
2) The current flange is about .4" above the subfloor in the back, and just under .8" above in the front. This means that the iron flange will be .1" above the finished flooring in the front, and ~.4" below it in the back. Will the hydroseat sit above the finished flooring enough to clear the flange in the front,
Not sure. I would guess yes.

From a HD question and answer:
What is the thickness of the flange
Asked by Jimmie
on April 27, 2020
Answer by HomeDepotCustomer
May 20, 2020
The material itself is approximately 1/8” thick, the height from the bottom of the four retaining tabs to the top of the flange I believe it close to 3/4” or slightly less. Hopefully this answers your question, good luck.​

If it turned out there is not enough space, just use the old flange with brass closet bolts. Be careful to have the shims placed before dropping the toilet onto the wax. You can mold wax without a horn to the shape you want rather than just dropping rings. You could mold the bottom hornless ring to horizontal, and place a ring with a horn atop that. With that longer column of wax, there seems that there could be more danger from plunging into a plugged soil pipe than if the Hydroseat fits.

You could buy the Hydroseat, and return if it does not fit. Or first take measurements of the underside clearance before committing further.

and will the wax seal fill in around .5" in the back?
For sure.
 
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Hightechburrito

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I think your assessment sounds really good.

Not sure. I would guess yes.

From a HD question and answer:
What is the thickness of the flange
Asked by Jimmie
on April 27, 2020
Answer by HomeDepotCustomer
May 20, 2020
The material itself is approximately 1/8” thick, the height from the bottom of the four retaining tabs to the top of the flange I believe it close to 3/4” or slightly less. Hopefully this answers your question, good luck.​

If it turned out there is not enough space, just use the old flange with brass closet bolts. Be careful to have the shims placed before dropping the toilet onto the wax. You can mold wax without a horn to the shape you want rather than just dropping rings. You could mold the bottom hornless ring to horizontal, and place a ring with a horn atop that. With that longer column of wax, there seems that there could be more danger from plunging into a plugged soil pipe than if the Hydroseat fits.

You could buy the Hydroseat, and return if it does not fit. Or first take measurements of the underside clearance before committing further.


For sure.


Thanks.

Did you happen to see my post right before yours? I was thinking that any motion/rocking/house settling/etc might result in a wax seal failing (since it can't uncompress), so maybe going with a waxless seal (sani-seal or similar). The only issue there is that the toilet flange isn't attached to anything. But reading some other threads here it seems like it's not a problem for a cast iron flange (I can stand on it and it barely moves). So a waxless seal would allow for some compliance between the toilet and flange without the seal failing.

The only question I have here is whether it's really okay to have a cast iron toilet flange not be attached to the subflooring. The toilet would be sitting on the finished floor and bolted to the toilet flange (and the flange is held in place by the piping). That's basically how it's been for about 60 years, seemingly without any major issues (I see evidence of a flooded bathroom but it looks like it came from a tub overflow).

One thing this brings to my mind is the initial home inspection when I bought the house (about 7 years ago). The inspector noted that the toilet rocked. I saw him push on it and it wasn't loose, probably just moved as much as the flange allowed.
 

Reach4

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Did you happen to see my post right before yours? I was thinking that any motion/rocking/house settling/etc might result in a wax seal failing (since it can't uncompress)
I had written my post without having read your follow-up. With careful shim placement before dropping the toilet, I think any rocking could be eliminated. For the waxless, I am not sure how well those will conform to the tilt.

I agree with your concerns. Many retailers take easy returns. I don't know how the HydroSeat is packaged.

I wonder about putting in four 1/16 thick washers under the hydroseat feet if it is indeed close.
 

Hightechburrito

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I had written my post without having read your follow-up. With careful shim placement before dropping the toilet, I think any rocking could be eliminated. For the waxless, I am not sure how well those will conform to the tilt.

I agree with your concerns. Many retailers take easy returns. I don't know how the HydroSeat is packaged.

I wonder about putting in four 1/16 thick washers under the hydroseat feet if it is indeed close.

The toilet didn’t really rock though. It sat flat on the floor just fine. I think it just moved as much as the iron piping allowed, and he called that rocking and noted it in the report.
 

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I've been mainly using wax when setting toilets. The flange should be secure, whatever that looks like. A little plus or minus is fine.
I check the shimming before dropping the bowl down the final time on wax. A bowl with movement is not a good plan.

 

Hightechburrito

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I've been mainly using wax when setting toilets. The flange should be secure, whatever that looks like. A little plus or minus is fine.
I check the shimming before dropping the bowl down the final time on wax. A bowl with movement is not a good plan.

Thanks Terry.

How does my flange look? Could I use it as-is (I’ll clean it up better of course).

Can you also address whether it’s okay that the flange isn’t attached to the floor? I can put all my weight on it and it barely moves.

If it’s okay not to be attached, then I may just use a wax free seal after checking that the toilet sits flat on the finished floor. It did before so it should still now. I replaced the toilet in my other bathroom -6 years ago this way and haven’t had any issues. I didn’t remove the flooring then so didn’t inspect the subfloor, so not certain that flange isn’t attached but I assume it’s the same (not attached).

If it’s not okay does my plan to use a hydroseat sound good. My only concerns with that are that the flanges on the hydroseat may not line up with where I have subfloor so it may only go into the 1/2” underlayment. Can I rotate the hydroseat 180 degrees if that helps me screw it down to solid wood?

Thanks.
 

Reach4

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Can I rotate the hydroseat 180 degrees if that helps me screw it down to solid wood?
180? Yes.

Also, a Molly anchor or toggle bolt could be used for one of the legs IMO. Maybe more than one, but that sounds trickier.
 

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I have set thousands of toilets in my lifetime, but sure, ask a first time homeowner on the Home Depot site.
Makes way more sense the following the video I made.
Have I used the Danco, no, but I have used others like that. I know that wax has been working for decades and I never get call backs.

Is the cast iron flange that you have going to last decades more? Yes
 

Hightechburrito

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I have set thousands of toilets in my lifetime, but sure, ask a first time homeowner on the Home Depot site.
Makes way more sense the following the video I made.
Have I used the Danco, no, but I have used others like that. I know that wax has been working for decades and I never get call backs.

Is the cast iron flange that you have going to last decades more? Yes


Thanks again!

Is it okay that the flange isn't attached to the floor?
 

Hightechburrito

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Another question I had is what size pipe do I actually have? In the attached picture, the ID of the pipe is around 3.5" (maybe 3.75" after cleaning the gunk).

I'm planning on screwing down the plywood to the subfloor tonight. Should be much stronger than the 3/8" particle board that was down there before.

I had started another thread when I couldn't find this one on a mobile browser, but I was also curious if it's okay that the flange isn't supported by the floor. Reading other threads, it seems this was common back in the 1960's, and is usually fine.

Also asked about if I'd ever see a leaking seal with the gaps between the subfloor and flange. It seems that any leakage will just run under the house instead of out on top of the finished flooring. Or am I overthinking things here, and wax rings aren't as prone to failure as I'm worrying about?

Thanks.
 

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Reach4

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I had started another thread when I couldn't find this one on a mobile browser, but I was also curious if it's okay that the flange isn't supported by the floor. Reading other threads, it seems this was common back in the 1960's, and is usually fine.

Also asked about if I'd ever see a leaking seal with the gaps between the subfloor and flange. It seems that any leakage will just run under the house instead of out on top of the finished flooring.
If it is going to bother you, you could put some lumber fragments (foot of 2x4 etc) under the floor. Use long lag bolts to hold the flange down thru slots or notches thatt you won't be using to hold the closet bolts.

Or am I overthinking things here, and wax rings aren't as prone to failure as I'm worrying about?
Probably, but that's OK. Some overkill is good.
 

Hightechburrito

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If it is going to bother you, you could put some lumber fragments (foot of 2x4 etc) under the floor. Use long lag bolts to hold the flange down thru slots or notches thatt you won't be using to hold the closet bolts.


Probably, but that's OK. Some overkill is good.

It's not going to bother me as long as its not a problem. It's been unsupported for 55 years, and from what I've read in other threads wasn't uncommon at the time.

Thanks.
 
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