Fleck 5800 sxt programming and upflow questions

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Nami

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Hi,

I just registered for these forums after trying to program and install my water softener this past week. I couldn't find any previous posts regarding my questions so I was wondering if someone could help me with my questions.

First off, I bought a Fleck 5800 sxt water softener 64,000 capacity with a carbon upflow filter. Both the tanks are sized 12" x 52". I have a family of 4 and live in a 3,400 sq. ft. house. My water hardness was 20 GPG using the Hach testing kit.



The green sticker attached below states .12 GPM and .37 lb salt/min (I'm not sure what this means but the rep used this for the calculation for brine fill). Also, the injector is #00 but there is no gpm listed. I think according to the manual, the BFLC is 0.125 gpm.



When I first installed the water softener, the water would just go down the drain. After talking to the seller, he redirected me to contact Pentair. I troubleshooted with rep and told me to change the VT setting from dF1b to UFbd and that seemed to solve the problem of water going down the drain. However, I now have a problem of water not drawing up the brine line from the brine tank. I will troubleshoot this and check the filters and my brine.

I realized just tonight, that the location of injector was in the lower hole and in the manual it says that if the injector is in the lower, then the system is an upflow softener. I attached a picture of this. My question is can I take this injector and move it to the upper hole to use the system as a downflow softener? I am not sure if there are other parts of this valve that have already been configured to be used as an upflow. I read in the forums that the consensus is usually downflow is better than upflow.



My second question is, I wanted to know if I have the best settings currently after talking with the rep. I have included the information below:

Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5800 ; Valve type
RF = UFbd ; Regeneration Floww
CT = Fd ; Regeneration Control Type
C = 24.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains (I think the rep recommended the setting be changed to 36 but I’m not sure because the setting didn’t save)
H = 20 ; Hardness (tested using Hach kit)
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 300 ; Reserve capacity gallons (The rep recommended this setting based on a family of 4)
DO = 14 ; Day Override (The rep recommended this setting)
RT = 3:00 ; Regen time (I set it at 3 AM)
BD = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
BW = 10; Backwash minutes
RR = 5; Rapid Rinse minutes (The rep recommended this setting)
BF = 10 ; Brine fill minutes (The rep recommended to change this setting I think to 32 minutes. For some reason the softener did not save the setting when I changed it and I do not recall what the rep said. Is this the correct setting for this? I forgot how he calculated this)
FM = t0.7
RE = OFF
VR = OFF
 

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Reach4

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I realized just tonight, that the location of injector was in the lower hole and in the manual it says that if the injector is in the lower, then the system is an upflow softener. I attached a picture of this. My question is can I take this injector and move it to the upper hole to use the system as a downflow softener? I am not sure if there are other parts of this valve that have already been configured to be used as an upflow.
On page 16, note part 61838. Piston and Seal Kit Assy, Upflow, 5800 (vs 61837 for downflow).

I don't know how to tell which piston you have. There is some indication that the upflow piston has a white cap, and the downflow piston has a black cap, but I am not sure. What color is your piston cap? If you look at
time 0:47, I think you can see that that piston has a black cap before any disassembly has happened, other than removing the outer cover. However the stuff around the cap is also black, so the piston cap does not stand out. A white one would stand out visually.

I don't know if the seals are different for upflow. I would guess no. But I can tell you that simply swapping the plug and injector is not the only thing needed for a change.

If swapping the VT setting to upflow fixed the problem, and you presume you have the upflow piston, then making the plug/injector swap makes sense.

On another front, a #00 injector is violet. If you really have a #00 violet injector, your BD should be increased to maybe 100 to 120. I did not check all of your settings.
 
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ditttohead

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Wow, what a shock, an online reseller said to call Pentair... lol. You should seriously give them a bad review, this is a company that has no clue what they are doing in water treatment, they are just trying to make a sale... they should not be in this industry... Regardless, you need to confirm the piston is an upflow piston. Post a picture of the back of the valve from a couple of viewpoints, cover off of course and I can have a better idea as to what you have. Also, be sure to check the drain line for any restrictions.

Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5800 ; Valve type
RF = UFbd ; Regeneration Flow
CT = Fd ; Regeneration Control Type
C = 48.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 23 ; Hardness (tested 20 using Hach kit)
RS = cr
DO = 28
RT = 3:00 ; Regen time (I set it at 3 AM)
BD = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
BW = 6; Backwash minutes
RR = 5; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 43
FM = t0.7
RE = OFF
 

Nami

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Wow, what a shock, an online reseller said to call Pentair... lol. You should seriously give them a bad review, this is a company that has no clue what they are doing in water treatment, they are just trying to make a sale... they should not be in this industry... Regardless, you need to confirm the piston is an upflow piston. Post a picture of the back of the valve from a couple of viewpoints, cover off of course and I can have a better idea as to what you have. Also, be sure to check the drain line for any restrictions.

Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5800 ; Valve type
RF = UFbd ; Regeneration Flow
CT = Fd ; Regeneration Control Type
C = 48.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 23 ; Hardness (tested 20 using Hach kit)
RS = cr
DO = 28
RT = 3:00 ; Regen time (I set it at 3 AM)
BD = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
BW = 6; Backwash minutes
RR = 5; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 43
FM = t0.7
RE = OFF

Hi Reach4 and dittohead, thank you for your replies. I’m a total newbie at this and I agree, the seller has been terrible throughout this whole install.

I’ve taken apart the unit according to the video and have attached my pictures. The injector is indeed violet. Does this pose a problem because it has a lower flow rate?

Also, I searched online for pictures of the “61837 Piston and Seal Kit Assy, Downflow, 5800” vs the “61838 Piston and Seal Kit Assy, Upflow, 5800” part and every picture online I looked at seems to picture the same part so I couldn’t accurately match the one I have with what I saw.

If we’re not sure whether it is upflow or downflow, should I keep the injector where it is at and keep the unit as an upflow softener? Are there a lot of cons with this?
 

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Nami

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Just an update, I got off the phone with the pentair rep again.

He looked up the serial number for my system and said that the piston is an upflow piston. He also said that for my 12” x 52” tank, I need the red #0 injector and NOT the purple #00 injector.

He also said that after several years, the upflow system has shown to be more efficient than the the downflow, but not by much, and recommended that I keep the upflow version. He said if I wanted to switch, I need to change the piston to a downflow and swap the positions of the injector to the upper hole instead of lower hole.

He then said to contact the seller and ask to order the red injector. I called my seller and told him the news and he replied, “Ok, let me order the red injector” and promptly hung up. I’m hoping he’ll text or call me with a tracking number. Terrible costumer service.
 

Reach4

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I’ve taken apart the unit according to the video and have attached my pictures. The injector is indeed violet. Does this pose a problem because it has a lower flow rate?
It does not cause a problem, other than having the unit in bypass a little longer in the middle of the night.

So I think I might go BD=110 for #00, and maybe BD=80 for #0 red. Maybe upflow changes those, but I don't think so.
 

Nami

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It does not cause a problem, other than having the unit in bypass a little longer in the middle of the night.

So I think I might go BD=110 for #00, and maybe BD=80 for #0 red. Maybe upflow changes those, but I don't think so.

Thanks for the reply Reach4, can I ask how you were able to calculate the number for the BD? Is there a formula?
 

Reach4

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There are graphs in the manual of the brine draw rate. Page 23. With #00, that draw rate might be 0.17 gpm.

During the first part of the BD cycle, the deposited during the BF was drawn out. I predict a BF of about 38 minutes. That water sits for a week, and produces a higher level of brine than there was water injected. So I expect the brine might be drawn in about 31.7 minutes. You want the entire cycle to be about 3.5 to 4 or a little more times that 31.7 minutes.
 

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There are graphs in the manual of the brine draw rate. Page 23. With #00, that draw rate might be 0.17 gpm.

During the first part of the BD cycle, the deposited during the BF was drawn out. I predict a BF of about 38 minutes. That water sits for a week, and produces a higher level of brine than there was water injected. So I expect the brine might be drawn in about 31.7 minutes. You want the entire cycle to be about 3.5 to 4 or a little more times that 31.7 minutes.

So I set my BD to 110 and my BF to 38, did you say to change the BF to 38 or keep it at 32? Also, my capacity (C) is set at 36 does that need to be changed? This is all using the violet #00 injector with the RF setting UFbd (upflow)
 
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Reach4

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Increase H to 26 (from 23) for "high hardness compensation".

So I set my BD to 110 and my BF to 38, did you say to change the BF to 38 or keep it at 32? Also, is my capacity (C) is set at 36 does that need to be changed?
38 is good, and that is one of several good choices. I used that in my example. The table below has a bunch of pairs of C and BF pairs that you could choose. If you use BD=38, you can use C=48.1. I you use BD=32, which is a commonly chosen setting, you can set C to 42.0.

The less salt per cubic ft, the more salt efficient, but more hardness breakthrough.
Revised based on number from https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-for-programming-fleck-5810.82673/#post-595983

BLFC = 0.125
cubic ft resin = 2
Alternative C and BF pairs:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
5.063 ; 38.5 ; 27 ;less salt used. More hardnesss leakage
5.250 ; 39.2 ; 28
5.438 ; 40.0 ; 29
5.625 ; 40.7 ; 30
5.813 ; 41.4 ; 31
6.000 ; 42.0 ; 32 ;reasonable low salt usage setting
6.188 ; 42.7 ; 33
6.375 ; 43.3 ; 34
6.563 ; 43.9 ; 35
6.750 ; 44.5 ; 36
6.938 ; 45.0 ; 37
7.125 ; 45.6 ; 38 ; What I had used in my calculations
7.313 ; 46.1 ; 39
7.500 ; 46.6 ; 40
7.688 ; 47.2 ; 41
7.875 ; 47.6 ; 42
8.063 ; 48.1 ; 43 ;good choice: reasonable salt usage with softer water
8.250 ; 48.6 ; 44
8.438 ; 49.0 ; 45
8.625 ; 49.5 ; 46
8.813 ; 49.9 ; 47
9.000 ; 50.3 ; 48 ;softer still.
 

Nami

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Increase H to 26 for "high hardness compensation".


38 is good, and that is one of several good choices. I used that in my example. The table below has a bunch of pairs of C and BF pairs that you could choose. If you use BD=38, you can use C=48.1. I you use BD=32, which is a commonly chosen setting, you can set C to 42.0.

The less salt per cubic ft, the more salt efficient, but more hardness breakthrough.
Revised based on number from https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-for-programming-fleck-5810.82673/#post-595983

BLFC = 0.125
cubic ft resin = 2
Alternative C and BF pairs:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
5.063 ; 38.5 ; 27 ;less salt used. More hardnesss leakage
5.250 ; 39.2 ; 28
5.438 ; 40.0 ; 29
5.625 ; 40.7 ; 30
5.813 ; 41.4 ; 31
6.000 ; 42.0 ; 32 ;reasonable low salt usage setting
6.188 ; 42.7 ; 33
6.375 ; 43.3 ; 34
6.563 ; 43.9 ; 35
6.750 ; 44.5 ; 36
6.938 ; 45.0 ; 37
7.125 ; 45.6 ; 38 ; What I had used in my calculations
7.313 ; 46.1 ; 39
7.500 ; 46.6 ; 40
7.688 ; 47.2 ; 41
7.875 ; 47.6 ; 42
8.063 ; 48.1 ; 43 ;good choice: goo salt usage with softer water
8.250 ; 48.6 ; 44
8.438 ; 49.0 ; 45
8.625 ; 49.5 ; 46
8.813 ; 49.9 ; 47
9.000 ; 50.3 ; 48 ;softer still.

Thanks for all the info and help! Sorry for all the stupid questions, so to finalize I can use these numbers:

C = 48.1
BD = 38 min
BF = 43 min

Since my BFLC is 0.125, does that mean I have to increase my BD to 110 min as you suggested in the previous post?
 

Reach4

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BD = 38 min
BD= (31.7 * 3.5) = 110.9... maybe go with 111 to 120 minutes. Normally people don't tune the BD to the BF chosen. But if you did go up to BD=43, I would raise BD to 145.
 

Nami

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BD= (31.7 * 3.5) = 110.9... maybe go with 111 to 120 minutes. Normally people don't tune the BD to the BF chosen. But if you did go up to BD=43, I would raise BD to 145.

Ok, so these are the final numbers:

C = 48.1
BD = 145 min
BF = 43 min

With these numbers, should I still keep my DO = 14 days?
 

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They would not affect your decision regarding DO.

ok got it, thanks! I’m running a regen cycle right now with these settings. Hopefully all goes well.

Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal
VT = 5800
RF = UFbd
CT = Fd
C = 48.1
H = 20
RS = rc
RC = 300
DO = 14
RT = 3:00
BD = 145
BW = 10
RR = 5
BF = 43
FM = t0.7
RE = OFF
VR = OFF
 

Reach4

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Increase H to 26 (from 23) for "high hardness compensation".

Why DO=14? Softener is handling some iron?

I also see a black cap on your piston. There goes my theory from post #2 that upflow 5800 pistons have a white cap.
 
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Nami

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Increase H to 26 (from 23) for "high hardness compensation".

Why DO=14? Softener is handling some iron?

I also see a black cap on your piston. There goes my theory from post #2 that upflow 5800 pistons have a white cap.


My hardness was 20 GPG when I tested it using the Hach kit, so should I increase it to 23?

I set DO at 14 because the pentair rep recommended 14, what do you suggest?

And yes, your theory is true for Fleck 5600 valves, but for 5800 valves, upflow and downflow are both black according to the Pentair rep.
 

Reach4

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My hardness was 20 GPG when I tested it using the Hach kit, so should I increase it to 23?
Yes. See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....0-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189

I set DO at 14 because the pentair rep recommended 14, what do you suggest?
28 to 30 for city water.
And yes, your theory is true for Fleck 5600 valves, but for 5800 valves, upflow and downflow are both black according to the Pentair rep.
I searched part numbers for 5800 pistons, and a few pictures came up. I knew that was not authoritative. Did he have you measure something on the piston, or did he infer upflow solely from the serial number?
 

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Yes. See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....0-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189


28 to 30 for city water.

I searched part numbers for 5800 pistons, and a few pictures came up. I knew that was not authoritative. Did he have you measure something on the piston, or did he infer upflow solely from the serial number?


Got it, so the link of the post you sent says the conversion for the compensates water hardness is:

Compensated Water Hardness
Multiply by
1 - 20 gpg
1.1

21 - 40 gpg
1.2

41 - 70 gpg
1.3

71 - 100 gpg
1.4

100+ gpg
1.5

I will set my H to 23 and will change DO to 28.

So here are my final setting results:


Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal
VT = 5800
RF = UFbd
CT = Fd
C = 48.1
H = 23
RS = rc
RC = 300
DO = 28
RT = 3:00
BD = 145
BW = 10
RR = 5
BF = 43
FM = t0.7
RE = OFF
VR = OFF

During the regeneration BD phase of 145 minutes, I noticed that the there was not enough brine for the softener to draw from for the 145 minutes. Is it supposed to draw brine the whole 145 minutes?

Also, regarding the upflow valve, the pentair rep said the only way to tell without taking the piston apart was by the serial number for the Fleck 5800sxt.
 

Bannerman

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I noticed that the there was not enough brine for the softener to draw from for the 145 minutes. Is it supposed to draw brine the whole 145 minutes?
No. The brine should be all transferred to the resin tank in approx 36 minutes of that 145 minutes BD cycle. The remaining ~109 minutes is a slow rinse cycle that will push the brine slowly through the remainder of the resin, and will rinse chloride, calcium, magnesium and excess sodium to the drain.
 
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