Gould J5S - Pressure Build Problems + Noises

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Pr0t0c01

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Hey there again, it's been awhile since I've made a post on here as you guys got me fairly well setup a few years back as I was building my garage that we are still currently living in, but improved on lol.

Recently I noticed that my J5S wasn't keeping up with water demands, in fact the pump would kick in at 30psi and it used to cut off somewhere in the lines of 55-56 I believe. Now it kicks in like it should, but if too much demand, the pressure in the tank drops reading to around 10psi and I can hear the pump cavitating.

I assumed the pump which had lots of silt ran through it over the last 3-4 years, more so the first few years... Needed a rebuild on the pump side. So I got the main parts and was ready to rebuild. I was given the wrong parts somehow for the impeller and housing but found mine to be perfectly fine, no signs of any wear oddly enough. I replaced the main seal and the spring loaded portion behind the impeller.

Just because I had everything out, I pulled up my 1" pex inlet from the 2" casing and put a new 40ft piece down there with a new foot valve on it. In retrospect, none of this apparently needed to be done, as I still have the same issue.

Now I'm wondering if it's a bearing on the pump shaft possibly slowing down the pump RPM to the point where it isn't able to build pressure properly? It does have sort of a grinding sound when running and when it comes to a stop, it sounds almost like it comes to a much more sudden halt, rather then spinning down gently.

I wasn't able to check the pressure in the tank (36gal) as I couldn't drop the pressure to 0 at the time. But I can confirm no water out of schrader valve and the top portion of the tank has air in it and sounds normal. I recall having it set to 2lbs below the cut in setting.

Any insight into what this likely is and how easy/expensive is it to replace those bearings if that is the issue?
 

Valveman

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Gravel or grinding sound is usually cavitation. I am guessing a suction leak, probably right where the Plastic pipe connects to the pump. Sounds like the tank maybe bad also, but is not causing the problem mentioned.
 

Reach4

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I suggest that you use the search box above and look for this word for a tip in finding your vacuum leak:
index.php
 

Pr0t0c01

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Thanks guys... I isolated part of my system to just the pump to the tank portion by using ball valves. With these shut off, I do not have any loss of pressure at the tank after 30+ minutes.

I did empty out my entire system to 0 pressure and checked the tank and it was exactly 30PSI. My switch appears to be set as cut in @ 32psi and cut off @ 52 psi. This must have been the final number I settled on 3 years ago, I'm sure I have a post somewhere stating that fact. So everything from there on seems fine.

Would an air leak explain the sudden grind to a halt when the pump reaches it's cut off? I don't recall it sounding so abrupt before.


I really can't seem to find where a leak would be coming from. How does one have a leak but no water? I could see that if the pressure was that much more great than the static pressure of the tank at 52psi....?

Just as a point, from completely 0 PSI when the system was purged for testing.... It took my J5S through a 1" inlet, out of the 3/4" discharge to fill a 36gal tank with about a 18gal draw down (IIRC), from a 2" casement that is down to 42' and the water level was confirmed at 11ft... This took the pump 10 minutes and 21 seconds with zero demand from the rest of the system. I want to say that is almost double what it used to be.

Thanks again for the leads, any further help would be amazing.
 
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Valveman

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A 36 gallon tank only holds 8 gallons of water, not 18. 10 minutes to put 8 gallons in the than is not good. You could still have a suction leak. Air molecules are much smaller than water molecules, so a tiny suction leak will not drip water under pressure but will easily suck air when under vacuum.

Could also be a blockage like a foot valve or check valve stuck in the almost closed position.
 

Pr0t0c01

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Thanks Valveman, I couldn't recall the draw down, thought I remembered it being roughly 1/2 or under... But 8 gallons... Ouch.

That makes a lot of sense about the air vs water molecules. I only have one check valve and it is past the pressure tank on its way towards the filters. I'll test by shutting the ball valve immediately after the pump.

Also, to a possibility you mentioned earlier, the foot valve was replaced when I took everything apart, as was the pex suction tube and the pickup and discharge connection were redone as I had the pump out.

Is there a good way other than shaving cream or soaping water to identify an air leak? It appears to still be the same issue even if isolate the system to just the pump to tank, that should rule out leaks past that point.
 

LLigetfa

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It appears to still be the same issue even if isolate the system to just the pump to tank, that should rule out leaks past that point.
A suction leak will only happen between the well and the pump, not between the pump and the tank and beyond.
You mentioned a 40 foot drop pipe in the well. Does that mean you have a packer jet in the well making this a deep well pump? A shallow well pump cannot suck from that depth so if you have cavitation, it could also be from having the water table too low.
 

Pr0t0c01

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I didn't know that the suction leak could only be on the pump side. That leaves me even more confused.

No packer jet. Just 1" pex put down into a 2" metal casing that should be about 41-42' deep with a sand point tip on the end. The 1" pex has a foot valve (brand new now) on it. I thought perhaps the well was having issues producing as well the way you are suggesting. Which is why I checked the well level. I realize even if I were down for instance 100', that the shallow well pump would have not draw down so far. But having it longer than it can draw from shouldn't hurt it from my understanding?

So the only active air leak would then have to be above water level, to the pump, correct?
 

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Yes a suction leak can only be on the suction side of the pump. Suction leaks are usually right where plastic pipe connects to the pump. It could also still be the footvalve. Doesn't matter that it is new. It could still be sticking almost closed if the poppet is loose.
 

Pr0t0c01

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If that is the case, then im at a loss. What are the odds that the exact same issue would persist after I changed the entire pipe, foot valve and all connectors to the pump.

Is there something in the pump that could be leaking? I had already changed out the main seal and the spring loaded piece behind the impeller. At this point I'm inclined to think the pump has to be the issue. The only other alternative in my mind is that the well isn't recovering like it should.
 

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If that is the case, then im at a loss. What are the odds that the exact same issue would persist after I changed the entire pipe, foot valve and all connectors to the pump.

Is there something in the pump that could be leaking? I had already changed out the main seal and the spring loaded piece behind the impeller. At this point I'm inclined to think the pump has to be the issue. The only other alternative in my mind is that the well isn't recovering like it should.
Can you correlate your problems with how long the well has rested?

You could install a combination vacuum pressure gauge on the incoming suction line. If the vacuum is strong, the problem is in the well. The problem with adding a gauge is that introduces other potential leak spots.

Is there a good way other than shaving cream or soaping water to identify an air leak? It appears to still be the same issue even if isolate the system to just the pump to tank, that should rule out leaks past that point.
You could use plain water in a sopping wet rag on the joints on the suction side. If that changes the sound from the pump, then there is a vacuum leak. If you trace the leak to a glued joint, there is a way to plug that.
 

Pr0t0c01

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Valveman, If you are certain this has to be on the pump side, then I'm going to rip it back out tomorrow and check things out inside the pump again. I just checked the suction pipe on the inlet with a sopping wet rag and nothing changed. There is no other connections to leak on this suction tube as it is a single piece of pex, no joints or glues anywhere. The entire system is done in pex and where joints are at, they are done with copper compression rings.

Here is one of the parts I realized I didn't change out when I had the pump open. I'm guessing not replacing this MIGHT be my issue? As this is an actual seal. How often does this going bad lead to the issue I'm experiencing? It sounds like if this wasn't solid, it could easily cause that issue?

Z2g4AMD


If I should replace it, is there anything I should know about how to remove the old one and putting the new one in to avoid leaks?
 

Pr0t0c01

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A seal can leak air in, but it will also usually leak water out. Test the pump in a bucket so you can see what is going on.

I'll be taking the pump out of system here I'm the next day or so when I get time. Anything I should look for while I have it in buckets?

Thanks DonL, forgot to check my post after making it.
 

Pr0t0c01

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I'm at a complete loss. The only and last thing to conclude is that my well is not recovering fast enough.

I unhooked the well and brought it into a place that rebuilds them and told them what I had going on. He took it apart and said everything looked great. Then hooked it up to their pressure tank and a bucket of water and showed how well, smooth and great it ran. I was sort of bummed out hoping it was going to be something wrong with the pump.

Brought it home, hook it up and it sounded great for about 20-30 seconds. Built pressure from 30-40 very quickly, like it used to. Slowly heard the gravel and grinding noises come back and it slowed it progress. Bled the air out of the system at the faucets and got it to kick back in at 30psi... Sounded like it did before.

I think my well had 2 days to recover from the pump being out and the first 30 seconds the water was in the casing... After that I'm hypothesizing the water level drops below where the pump can draw from.

Am I crazy for thinking this? I'm not sure how a 3-4 year old well could get like this. If this is the case, would getting a coupler to go on top of the casing and using a commerical pull behind air compressor to pressurize the casing help much? When I put the well in, we rented a huge air compressor to run a pneumatic jack hammer. I was given a coupler and told to hook the compressor up to it and to suddenly turn the air on and off to push and create a large cavity at the bottom of the Sandpoint. I did this but was told to do it in small burst to prevent blowing the screens out of the well point.

I'm really not sure at this point. Beyond frustrated, it would really be terrible to go back to not having water in the house. I'd hate to call a professional well drilling company for my well to not be the problem. Already spent $40 to have someone take my pump apart and tell me it was already good. Well spent for the peace of mind and the guy was super nice and didn't charge me the full $75.
 

LLigetfa

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After that I'm hypothesizing the water level drops below where the pump can draw from.
I hypothesized that in post #7.

If the water table has dropped out of reach, you could convert from shallow well to deep well with a packer. If the sand point screen is getting plugged, blowing the well might help to unplug it provided it is not due to mineral encrustation. If it is encrusted, some nuwell cleaner might help.

Do note that the water inside the casing is not water in reserve meaning you cannot draw it down before the problem manifests. Every cup of water you pull from the casing has to be replaced by a cup of water going through the sand point screen. What you can draw down is what is called the "cone of depression" surrounding the well.
 

Reach4

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Brought it home, hook it up and it sounded great for about 20-30 seconds. Built pressure from 30-40 very quickly, like it used to. Slowly heard the gravel and grinding noises come back and it slowed it progress. Bled the air out of the system at the faucets and got it to kick back in at 30psi... Sounded like it did before.
Air each time you have the problem says that you have a vacuum (incoming air) leak or your pipe is not deep enough. How far below the water is the bottom of your PEX?

No packer jet. Just 1" pex put down into a 2" metal casing that should be about 41-42' deep with a sand point tip on the end. The 1" pex has a foot valve (brand new now) on it. I thought perhaps the well was having issues producing as well the way you are suggesting. Which is why I checked the well level. I realize even if I were down for instance 100', that the shallow well pump would have not draw down so far. But having it longer than it can draw from shouldn't hurt it from my understanding?
How are you measuring that 41 ft? Altitude from the highest point on the pump, which I think is what counts? Where does the air come from??? It is coming from somewhere. If you don't have a leak up top, then the water level gets below the intake. Seriously, if you had that combination vacuum and pressure gauge, that could be useful info. Got any fittings, such as an elbow, on the way to the bottom of the well?

And what is the deal with the sand point? I hope you mean a foot valve, which combines a screen and a check valve. A sand point has no check valve, and has a point.
 
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