PE line from meter, IPS vs CTS

[Coolwhip]

Running a new line from meter, will be using PE pipe/tubing, ~85ft run, will either be using either 1 1/4" or 1 1/2"...should I use pipe or tubing? Being able to used barbed fittings and worm gear clamps is attractive, but from what I've read CTS is the more conventional choice in this situation?

Advantages/disadvantages of each?

Thank you

 

[Reach4]

CTS plastic would probably be PEX. Otherwise you could use SIDR. That's the one with the barbs and the worm gear clamps. SIDR has the same ID so it fits the same fittings, regardless of the thickness and pressure rating.

I've read CTS is the more conventional choice in this situation?

Really? That seems strange.

The IPS plastic used most frequently for home water service lines would be PVC, AFAIK.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Coolwhip]

PE comes in both IPS and CTS. The most obvious difference, as you've also referenced, is that using IPS allows for the use of barbed fittings while CTS PE tubing(at least in these sizes) does not.

Is that the only difference? Assuming pressure ratings is the same on each(or at least high enough to not make a difference, as the CTS/IPS PE I am looking at is either 200/160 psi rated)...are there any other meaningful differences?

I understand the difference between CTS and IPS in general,(ID vs OD controlled) but I am wondering about any differences between CTS and IPS for PE tubing/piping with regards to this application(line from meter to house). Mostly practical differences, installation/maintenance differences, service life, etc...not so much diameter differences.

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"Really? That seems strange."

From https://www.endot.com/faq/endopure/7

"CTS is the abbreviation for Copper Tube Sized water tubing. CTS products are most often used for municipal water service connections from the water main to the house or building. CTS is produced to ASTM D2737 and is Outside Diameter controlled allowing the use of external compression fittings for joining. CTS is usually only produced in a 200 PSI rating."

Although I will admit I didn't know if they meant other materials in CTS are most often used...or if CTS PE tubing is most often used over IPS PE pipe.

 

[Reach4]

Besides the ID difference, pex costs more. That is not significant for your short distance.

For any, don't pull tight in the trench. Allow for thermal contraction. See page "77" ( 87 of 128) https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pex_design_guide.pdf

 

[Coolwhip]

Not PEX, PE as in HDPE, poly. But I imagine your advice still applies, thank you, I will be sure to take mind of that.

I did consider going with PEX, but it gets exponentially more expensive above 1"...its a 1.5 bathroom house with efficient(relatively) appliances, so I imagine I could have gotten away with 1" pex on the short run(no elevation change)...but I opted to go larger diameter and to stay within budget use poly...is this the right decision?

I could afford 1-1/4" PEX, which would have slightly over 1" ID...that should be sufficient...would a larger diameter have a noticeable affect considering the relatively short run and low water demand? Does poly come with any advantages over pex in this application?

 

[Reach4]

Not PEX, PE as in HDPE, poly.

Do you know where the word PEX comes from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-linked_polyethylene

I could afford 1-1/4" PEX, which would have slightly over 1" ID...that should be sufficient...would a larger diameter have a noticeable affect considering the relatively short run and low water demand? Does poly come with any advantages over pex in this application?

I think 1 inch or 1-1/4 SIDR PE is probably right right for a house. Those are commonly used in well work.

https://www.menards.com/main/search.html?sf_categoryHierarchy=&search=sidr

Use two clamps on each barb, with the worms on opposite sides. Heat the ends in boiling water to soften to insert onto the barbs easier.

 

[Fitter30]

Might want to consider blue trace tape throw in the ditch.

 

[Coolwhip]

Do you know where the word PEX comes from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-linked_polyethylene

I understand the confusion, but I am not talking about cross linked polyethylene, I am talking about high density polyethylene pipe. Commonly referred to as PE pipe, HDPE, or poly pipe. If I meant PEX I would have added the X.

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I would really love it if someone intimately familiar with hydraulics could chime in. Even better if they have experience installing service lines with different materials.

Is there any advantage to be had by using a pipe with a larger inside diameter than 1" in this situation? Would my pressure/flow benefit noticeably from using a pipe with a 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" inside diameter?

If not I might consider using PEX(as I've already plumbed the house with it).

Reach4, so you recommend using IPS HDPE pipe? Is the ability to use barbed fittings the only advantage over CTS HDPE? Does it have any disadvantages?

fitter30, what is blue trace tape?

 

[Reach4]

Reach4, so you recommend using IPS HDPE pipe?

I suggested SIDR , ASTM D2239.

I understand the confusion, but I am not talking about cross linked polyethylene, I am talking about high density polyethylene pipe. Commonly referred to as PE pipe, HDPE, or poly pipe. If I meant PEX I would have added the X.

I was not confused. I knew you did not explicitly ask about PEX. But you did say CTS.

 

[Plumber01]

Funny conversation. Reach, I'm not sure if you're trying to confuse this guy or you just dont know what you're talking about. You're going round and round.

Bottom line. HDPE aka PE aka poly, comes in IPS or CTS. It also comes sdr or sidr, which is only the means the manufacturer uses to calculate the wall thickness. CTS uses pack joint compression fittings only. IPS can use either pack joint or barbed.

In my area the water companies typically use CTS because they feel the pack joint fittings are better than barbed.

What was the original question again

 

[Reach4]

Funny conversation. Reach, I'm not sure if you're trying to confuse this guy or you just dont know what you're talking about. You're going round and round.

I wasn't trying. I thought I played it straight -- no curves.

IPS is fixed OD rather than fixed ID. So there may be a wall thickness that fits the barbs. With SIDR, you know it will fit the barbs.

Good info on the CTS and the pack joint fittings.

 

[wwhitney]

I would really love it if someone intimately familiar with hydraulics could chime in. Even better if they have experience installing service lines with different materials.

Is there any advantage to be had by using a pipe with a larger inside diameter than 1" in this situation? Would my pressure/flow benefit noticeably from using a pipe with a 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" inside diameter?

No experience, but passing familiarity with the hydraulic computations. See the Hazen Williams formula.

Basically, it says the frictional pressure loss per unit length for a fixed flow rate varies with inner pipe diameter d as d^(-4.87). So if you are comparing a 1.25" ID pipe to a 1.00" ID pipe, the pressure loss at any given flow rate for the 1.25" ID pipe will be 1/(1.25^4.87) = ~1/3 of the pressure loss for the 1.00" ID pipe.

But you still need to know the absolute pressure losses, since if the 1" ID pipe pressure loss is 1 psi, reducing that to 1/3 psi is pretty useless, while if the 1" ID pipe pressure loss is 30 psi, reducing that to 10 psi is quite useful.

There is a procedure for determining the design level flow Q based on the fixture units of the plumbing fixtures in the house, but I'm not familiar with the details. I believe appendix P of the IRC discusses it, and the UPC may have a different version. But if you figure out the right Q to use, the full Hazen Williams formula in English units is:

S/L = (4.52 * Q^1.852) / (C^1.852 * d^4.8704)

Where S is pressure loss in psi, L is length in feet, Q is flow in gpm, C is a roughness coefficient this is usually 150, and d is the pipe inside diameter in inches.

E.g. for L = 100 feet, Q = 10 gpm, C = 150, and d = 1.00", you get S = 3.00 psi. While for Q = 20 gpm, S = 10.8 psi.

Edit: this is of course just the pressure loss attributable to that section of pipe. Pressure losses at the meter, inside the house, and due to vertical rise will be on top of that.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Plumber01]

IPS is fixed OD rather than fixed ID. So there may be a wall thickness that fits the barbs. With SIDR, you know it will fit the barbs.

There are two standards called IPS.

D2239 is fixed ID IPS. D3035 is fixed OD IPS.

D2239=Tubing. D3035=Pipe.

D2737 is CTS, fixed OD.

 

[Coolwhip]

What was the original question again?

The original question was is the ability to used barbed fittings the only meaningful difference between CTS and IPS poly tube/pipe? You say the water companies use CTS because they prefer compression fittings....to me the ability to used barbed fittings was a plus. I was just looking for some info/guidance on which type of poly to choose.

Your comments were helpful, if there are any other features which distinguish the two I would appreciate someone sharing them with me.

The conversation evolved to diameter, as I am on a budget and diameter changes result in huge cost changes....I want as much water pressure/flow as I can get, but if the increase becomes unnoticeable after a certain level I don't want to keep spending money on a larger diameter.

So the question is now....with a ~85-95ft run to the house, small house with only 1.5BR with relatively new(so relatively efficient) fixtures and appliances...at what diameter does it become pointless to increase the size anymore? How much of a difference would I notice between 1" ID and 1-1/4" ID, same question for difference between 1-1/4" to 1-1/2".

I know 1" ID is "sufficient" but 1-1/4" would be preferred, correct? Would I benefit from going even larger to 1-1/2" ID?

 

[Reach4]

http://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/

Usually 10 gpm is good for a house, but if you want extra margin, calculate with 20 gpm.

 

[Coolwhip]

Thank you, exactly what I was looking for.