Fleck 5810 flow meter registering way too much flow

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topnitroracer

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Hello Everyone.

Just in the last week I had my Fleck 5810 softener system installed. Since then, I have been noticing the volume of water it is registering is very high. For reference over 90 days I usually average about 9000 gallons of total household water use. This is softened water plus un-softened. The flow usage on my Fleck 5810 has been showing about 350 to 450 gallons used each day. Last night it said I used 70+ gallons while I was sleeping and not using water. FYI the 5810 is set up for the 1.25 turbine meter.

One thing I notice is there are a lot of times when I check the current flow rate from the meter and it states it is about 0.3 GPM when it should read zero because no water has been used for a while. And sometimes it stays at 0.3GPM for a long time. I am thinking this is where most of the extra volume used is coming from. I am not leaking 200+ gallons a day. This situation is a little baffling for me as I would have naturally expected the flow to want to stop prematurely and/or under report. Not report 2-3x+ the expected water usage each day. The logical explanation would be a toilet leak, but nothing is running and my water meter and water bill do not support this.

I have removed the flow meter and inspected it. Everything looks okay. I have confirmed it even shows 0.3GPM even with the bypass engaged, and no flow is coming out the drain line when it shouldn't. I have also disconnected the flow meter connector from the board and it still reads a flow value when logically it should read zero. It baffles me why the flow meter reads a value when the pickup is completely disconnected from the board .

Does anyone have any suggestions for what could be the issue or stuff I should try to help you diagnose? One thing I have not yet done, but plan to is to put the softener into bypass overnight and reset the gallons used and check how many gallons it says was used overnight. I have also not removed the flow meter pickup from the housing body. I tried pulling it out but it was in there good and was not sure it there was a trick to removing it. I did not want to risk damaging it.

I would appreciate any help. I mean the system is working and softening the water, but it will want to regen way to often for how much water has actually gone through the system.


Thanks!
 

ditttohead

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Do you have an RO? Go into diagnostics and check to totalizer to see what it reads. The volume on the main screen will not be accurate since it is an algorithmic reading and it adjusts automatically.
 

topnitroracer

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Also just to add I have the 5810 XTR2.

I do have reverse osmosis system, but I have been aware of what that should be doing and have been shutting off the water supply for the investigations.

Okay so an update. I put the water softener into bypass. Then waited a little while, then cleared all the values in the diagnosis page, then waited several hours and looked at the readings. Everything was basically zero. So that is good.

I took the softener out of bypass, but off all the toilets, RO, with no water use still quite a bit of flow in a short time. Then I shut off the feed heading into the hot water heater. Everything dropped to zero. Then I opened up the feeds to the toilets and RO, everything still was zero.

So something is causing a flow reading on the softener on the hot water side, but I can still not imagine I am losing absolutely huge amounts of water on the hot water side. I shut off the hot water feed into the washing machine - didn't seem to make an impact. I still need to shut off the dishwasher line. I wonder if the expansion tank on the hot water side is causing the flow meter to keep reading. Or whether some leak is happening across a faucet from the hot water side to the cold water side. I can also play around with removing the expansion tank to see if that is the cause.
 

Reach4

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So something is causing a flow reading on the softener on the hot water side, but I can still not imagine I am losing absolutely huge amounts of water on the hot water side.
City water? Thermal expansion tank for the WH? If both, and there is no check valve on your water meter or elsewhere in you home, changes in the water main pressure can cause water to go into and out of your expansion tank. One fix is to put a check valve between the meter and the softener. An easier and cheaper fix is to set the air precharge in the expansion tank to a couple PSI higher than the city water pressure ever gets to, even on surges/pulses. A thermal expansion tank should normally be empty of water.

That proposed bi-directional flow still does not explain the counting while the unit was in bypass (both valves rotated). It does not explain why the count was incrementing while you had pulled the cable out of the meter turbine area. That would only seem to be explained by either
  • a bad sensor cable or the circuit board
  • a source of changing magnetic field strong enough and close enough to the hall sensor to trigger counts.
  • the bypass does not fully bypass
If there were actually hot water being lost somewhere, the output pipe would feel hot a few feet after the WH. If there is no flow, that pipe would cool. If the problem is that water is going into and out of the expansion tank, the WH supply pipe valve would stop the flow to/from the expansion tank.
 
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Edvs

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What firmware version is on the controller? Check out thread fleck-5810-turbine-flow-meter-inaccuracy. If you have a newer firmware version than 1.7.1812, it may be that they tried to fix this issue, but still got it wrong (the .3 flow, which should be zero).

I've built my own water volume measuring circuit, using the 5810 turbine meter as a pulse source. I've determined that the water volume per pulse varies somewhat depending on the rate of flow, and especially at the start of a flow. With the XTR2 controller configured for the 1.25" turbine meter, I suspect the firmware is attempting to take this into account, but they got it wrong, resulting in much higher water usage than actual usage. To see if this is your problem, configure the XTR2 for a Generic meter, and set the pulse count per gallon to 44.5. You should get a much better water usage reading. You may need to adjust this value up or down slightly, depending on you water usage pattern. It will not be 100% accurate, but should be within a few percentage points.
 

ditttohead

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Do you have a hot water recirculation pump?

A check valve after the softener and a thermal expansion tank can help. Do not install a check valve without the thermal expansion tank. If you do not have a thermal expansion tank, the softener and plumbing becomes it.
 

topnitroracer

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I still need to do some testing, for which I have parts to do it this afternoon. I am definitely leaning towards the expansion chamber. I am going to remove it for now and plug the connection.

I installed the thermal expansion tank when I put in my new water heater several years ago as I just assumed I had check valve / back flow preventer on my supply line coming in from the city water.

The line leaving the hot water heater is definitely not hot like it is when hot water is in demand. It seems like it definitely points to flow going in and out based on water supply pressure - which causes issues with the flow meter which would reach positive flow each direction. It could also be compounded by a 6.5 year hold expansion chamber that may be losing charge pressure. Or perhaps city water pressure has changed over the years.

I should know rather quick. It was night and day when I shut off the hot water supply. Overnight flow (over ~ 9 hours) went from 70-80 gallons when there was absolutely no flow demand to 5 gallons with some limited water being used/toilets flushed etc.

I should know more soon. Then figure out long term what I do.
 

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I am definitely leaning towards the expansion chamber. I am going to remove it for now and plug the connection.
I assume 'expansion chamber' is referring to the expansion tank you installed.

If there is no backflow prevention device on the incoming line from the city main, whether or not you remove the expansion tank, water that expands when heated in your water heater, will continue to push back through the softener to the city main. The city main will act as an expansion tank.

If a backflow prevention device is actually present to prevent backward flow to the city main, without an expansion tank in your home, the excessive pressure caused by the expansion of cold water when heated in the water heater, will likely result in the water heater's pressure relief valve to open.

As Ditttohead suggested in the previous posting, install a check valve and expansion tank after the water softener. The expansion tank will need to be located after the check valve.

The line leaving the hot water heater is definitely not hot like it is when hot water is in demand.
It is perfectly normal for hot water in the outgoing line from the water heater to be somewhat cooler when not flowing. There is often a heat trap in the outgoing connection to reduce thermal loss from the water stored in the tank, and hot water sitting stagnant in the line will gradually lose heat to the surrounding air.
 
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topnitroracer

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Thanks for the insight.

Yesterday I checked the pressure in my thermal expansion chamber and it was low. I removed it for easier access and it was at about 40psi. My water pressure is about 55psi. So the bladder was definitely pretty active. I was pretty sure it was higher when I installed it so it might have just lost pressure over the years.

I ended up capping off the expansion tank location for now and things appeared ton be dramatically improved. Way different from before. I am just trying to sort out some discrepancies. The fleck meter might read low now during flow events, but still seems to register a little more flow than it should when nothing is happening. I am thinking any thermal expansion is still going back through the softener triggering positive flow being used. But the flow rate accuracy could be adjusted some custom tweaking of the flow meter k-value.

So a check valve will definitely be a good add - that as well as having the expansion tank at a correct pressure.

Does anyone have any recommendations for 3/4" check valves for minimum pressure drop? Anyone have experience with the sharkbite one? I am not really a fan of NPT. Any recommendation of putting the check valve right after the softener, or on the branch heading to the hot water heater. My thought on the line going to the hot water heater is lessening the flow demand through the check valve. Not sure how significant the drops are, but I am a fan of the water pressure I have and is one reason why I chose to the 5810.
 

Bannerman

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Here is a link to a prior thread you may find useful.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ermittently-blinking.77524/page-2#post-566635


With a spring-loaded check valve installed in the line directly after the softener, that will prevent water from anywhere downstream from pushing back through the softener. While spring loading will require a little extra force to open the CV gate, the spring will also help to ensure the CV gate will fully close when there is no flow.

Although you may be thinking there will be an excessive quantity of water flowing back through the softener to cause the meter to register a high volume, in actuality, the softener's meter only counts individual pulses each time a magnet on the turbine passes a coil. A small amount of expansion and contraction could potentially cause just one magnet to pass the coil repeatedly, causing the controller to count each back and forth pass as 1/133 of 1 gallon if your controllers' K-factor setting is 133.

I removed it for easier access and it was at about 40psi. My water pressure is about 55psi.
When you checked the pressure, was the tank disconnected and empty at the time? If so, that 40 psi will be the tank's precharge. If you checked the tank's pressure when connected and with the water to the house turned on, the tank pressure should have been equal to the pressure from the town supply.

With no backflow prevention device to prevent backflow to the city's water main, the expansion tank will not have been providing any value since the tank's pressure cannot climb higher than the city main pressure. With a backflow prevention device in-place, the expansion tank's pressure can climb higher than the city main pressure since any water that expanded in the water heater, will have nowhere else to go except into the expansion tank.
 
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topnitroracer

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Thanks for that.

The 40psi pressure was precharge pressure. I checked it first before I removed too it and it was right at the water pressure. So with it being at about 40psi empty, and water pressure being at around 55psi, it was definitely using quite a bit of that volume most of the time. When it was installed, it should have been right at or slightly higher than the water pressure I measured. I bought a gauge for this 6-ish years ago.

But you are right. It does not need to be a huge amount of water. Just enough to move the magnet back and forth across the pickup zone.

I will get a spring check valve after the softener and of course keep the expansion tank. Right now I have a 50 gal water heater and a ST-12 tank so about 4.4 gal. I am going to precharge the tank higher in pressure too. Perhaps more like 60-65psi. I will have to keep an eye on it too if it keeps loosing pressure I will replace it.
 

Bannerman

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40 psi is a standard factory precharge for some brands but the Amtrol website indicates they use 50psi. As I expect there could be some diffusion through the bladder, 10 psi loss in 6 years does not seem to indicate the tank has an issue holding air.

The pressure you plan seems excessive. If the city pressure is 55, then setting the precharge at that pressure or slightly lower will allow little if any water to enter the tank under normal use, and the pressure will not become too high when expansion does occur and the precharge air becomes further compressed.

Here's a link to a Potable Water Expansion Tank sizing calculator.

http://www.wattscanada.ca/pages/support/sizing_DET.asp
 
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Reach4

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The 40psi pressure was precharge pressure. I checked it first before I removed too it and it was right at the water pressure. So with it being at about 40psi empty, and water pressure being at around 55psi, it was definitely using quite a bit of that volume most of the time. When it was installed, it should have been right at or slightly higher than the water pressure I measured. I bought a gauge for this 6-ish years ago.
I would raise the air precharge to 60 psi. See if that cuts down on the phantom readings.
 

topnitroracer

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Okay some progress and I do believe I have it resolved.

The first thing I did was temporarily remove the expansion tank. Charge pressure was at 43psi. So I removed it and capped the port and things seemed to be a little better, but volume being accumulated was still much higher than it should have been. I then increased the charge pressure in the expansion tank higher than water pressure and reinstalled it. Basically same results as not having the expansion tank. So it looked like the expansion of the hot water system was still enough to cause subtle movements to register flow.

Then I installed a check valve on the outlet of the softener. I was confident this should have solved the problem, but I was still heading much higher volume accumulated than I should have. Then went to check the function of the check valve and found it was leaking. Took it out, inspected it, nothing stuck inside, but definitely leaking air. Must have been defective. Bought a replacement valve installed it and so far everything looks as it should. If anything now the volume accumulated is slightly less than what the water meter reads.

Ended up being the same basic issue as the other thread with the 9100sxt. But this is the first night where I have not had the not water side isolated and the water softener consumption was basically right where it should be. I can still mess with the flow meter k-factor if the flow accuracy is slightly off.
 

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I think I have the same thing going on with my newly installed 5810 XTR2 on city water. Noticed the softener totalizer was reading much higher than the meter at the street (testing, resetting and testing again over several days). Sometimes over reporting by as much as 2-3X (100's of gallons).

I wanted to check the accuracy of each meter, so I measured the 5 gallon mark in a Homer bucket. I filled and dumped it in my pool 20 times which needed water anyway. It wasn't an exact science, but should have gotten me close. Read 102 gallons at the softener and 94 at the street. The softener was probably really, really close to being accurate as I didn't account for any spillage or water in the hose.

...So I don't think it is an accuracy issue. And I'm not complaining about the city meter under reporting slightly. I also have an expansion tank installed at my gas water heater tank. Set just a couple PSI above line pressure (or so I was told by a plumber). The tank is set to 70 PSI, but I am not sure what the incoming water pressure actually is.

I already ordered a check valve to place just after the softener output. Seemed like a decent part and I liked that it had very little effect on pressure per spec sheet.
https://www.zurn.com/products/water-safety/backflow-prevention/model-40xl2

Hoping that will resolve the increased flow being measured by the softener!

Also, I want to install a pressure gauge at the same time... So my questions is where should it go? I was thinking it should also go after the softener - so that I am able to measure the pressure going into the house after any restriction from the softener itself. Theoretically I should also then be able to by pass the softener with the valves and see what kind of pressure drop it is causing... So then the questions is before or after the check valve? After maybe since the check will have a slight effect on pressure at higher flow rates?? Or am I thinking about that wrong?

Thanks guys!
 

Reach4

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So then the questions is before or after the check valve? After maybe since the check will have a slight effect on pressure at higher flow rates?? Or am I thinking about that wrong?
Gauge after check valve or before should be good for comparisons.

Gauge after check valve would measure the effect of thermal expansion on the pressure at the WH when no hot water is being used. Make sure you have a working thermal expansion tank. The gauge would let you see that pressure that the WH sees. So before the check valve, I think a 100 psi gauge would be appropriate. After the check valve, a 200 psi gauge would let you see the up-to-150 the WH could potentially see due to a failed thermal expansion tank.
 

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Gauge after check valve or before should be good for comparisons.

Gauge after check valve would measure the effect of thermal expansion on the pressure at the WH when no hot water is being used. Make sure you have a working thermal expansion tank. The gauge would let you see that pressure that the WH sees. So before the check valve, I think a 100 psi gauge would be appropriate. After the check valve, a 200 psi gauge would let you see the up-to-150 the WH could potentially see due to a failed thermal expansion tank.

Thanks Reach! Gauge after check would allow me to see thermal expansion when no hot OR cold water is being used right (not just hot)?

I think that's where i'll put it. Appreciate the help!
 

Reach4

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Thanks Reach! Gauge after check would allow me to see thermal expansion when no hot OR cold water is being used right (not just hot)?
Using cold would not affect the hot pressure because of the check valve. Using even a tiny amount of hot would release any excess pressure that thermal expansion had caused.
 

talsma

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Using cold would not affect the hot pressure because of the check valve. Using even a tiny amount of hot would release any excess pressure that thermal expansion had caused.
So I planned on putting the check valve right after the softener. Softener is placed very close to where the water enters the house. All water is plumbed to go thru the softener.

It is my assumption that the output from the softener goes on to split in order to feed the hot water heater while also feeding all the cold lines. In this setup I'd think that running cold or hot lines would relieve any thermal expansion? Am I thinking about that wrong?

A check valve after the split on the hot water side I think would act as you described above? Thanks again!
 
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