Toilet flange broken AND sitting below tile

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Mr. Grieves

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I have found several threads discussing how to deal with a broken flange and others describing how to raise a flange to be flush with the finished floor but not both problems at the same time.

The basement toilet in my home would occasionally leak when flushed so I finally decided to replace it this weekend. When I removed it today I found that the flange was cracked on both sides and it was sitting almost a half-inch below the tile on one side. I'm not sure if I should use a flange repair ring or a flange extender or both (is that even possible?) to address the two problems. Would be grateful for any advice.

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Terry

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The flange is okay, but you do need to secure the closet bolts. Being as low as it is, it needs either the thick ring, or two rings stacked.
Regular down first, and then a horn wax dropped over that.
There are seveal flange repair rings you can use to secure the bolts.

If you raise the flange, Sioux Chief makes on the fits inside. Hard to find now, the hardware stores have switched to a brand that doesn't really fit anymore.
 

Mr. Grieves

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Forgot to mention that the flange is embedded into the concrete floor, in case that makes a difference.

Ok, I was thinking that repair ring and a thick wax ring might do the trick but worried it was still too deep. Is it possible to secure a repair ring on top of the flange with tapcons and then attach a spacer ring with silicone on top of that? Would that be better than just stacking wax?
 

Jadnashua

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I'd just put a repair ring on there using some silicon between the existing one and the repair ring. Yes, something like a tapcon screw would work to anchor it. While the proper position for the flange is on top of the finished floor, there are millions of them where people have installed them first, then added tile later, resulting it it being recessed.

Once you've set the toilet, use some caulk around the front 3/4 of the toilet to help hold it in place. Especially on a tiled floor, there's not much friction between the toilet and the tile, and you can't really tighten the bolts enough to hold it in place reliably. Make sure that you've located and placed any shims required to prevent the toilet from rocking prior to setting it down into the wax. Once you've set the toilet, the only thing you can do is push it down further into the wax. You can't really rotate it or allow it to rock, or you'll smush the wax down and when it rocks back, leave a gap. The shims must be located and installed before setting the toilet down onto them for this to work reliably.
 

Mr. Grieves

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Ok, will avoid the spacer.

What about the Fluidmaster "Better than Wax" toilet seal? Would that be an option in my case? It looks like the rubber gasket that comes with it would effectively bring the flange up to floor level for me.
 

dsc3507

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See my write up on this at

http://crompton.com/Installing an Oatey PVC flange extender.pdf

You would not do it exactly the same way but the Oatey replacement extenders work well. There are two types. The one I used is inserted and uses three hex keyed bolts to tighten. They also have a version that you screw in the extender to tighten the gasket. If the cast iron flange has good solid flange bolt areas you could do as I did and connect the flange bolts securely with washers and nuts there and then place nuts and washer on the bolts set to floor level and place the extender and washer and nuts on top. You may need longer flange bolts. 3 1/2 inch are available at most stores. BTW both Lowes and Home Depot really have bad inventories on some of this stuff. I got the Oatey extender I used at Ace hardware.
 

Mr. Grieves

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See my write up on this at

http://crompton.com/Installing an Oatey PVC flange extender.pdf

You would not do it exactly the same way but the Oatey replacement extenders work well. There are two types. The one I used is inserted and uses three hex keyed bolts to tighten. They also have a version that you screw in the extender to tighten the gasket. If the cast iron flange has good solid flange bolt areas you could do as I did and connect the flange bolts securely with washers and nuts there and then place nuts and washer on the bolts set to floor level and place the extender and washer and nuts on top. You may need longer flange bolts. 3 1/2 inch are available at most stores. BTW both Lowes and Home Depot really have bad inventories on some of this stuff. I got the Oatey extender I used at Ace hardware.

That is a great write up but my flange is not cast iron and it is broken so I don't think this will work for me.
 

Reach4

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Take a look at https://www.danco.com/product/hydroseat-flange-repair/

Danco HydroSeat
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Two or so wax rings below. One above.

Either drill holes in the tile to allow screws in the legs to hold it down, or use the holes in the ring part and go through the existing plastic flange into the flooring below with screws.
 

Mr. Grieves

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Take a look at https://www.danco.com/product/hydroseat-flange-repair/

Danco HydroSeat
next-by-danco-toilet-flanges-10672x-64_145.jpg

Two or so wax rings below. One above.

Either drill holes in the tile to allow screws in the legs to hold it down, or use the holes in the ring part and go through the existing plastic flange into the flooring below with screws.

I came back to ask about this very product! I happened to pick one up because I could not find a flat flange repair ring anywhere. Here is what it looks like sitting in place for me.

I have two concerns about this though:
1) The significant gap between the top of the flange and the bottom of the hydroseat. At the worst point I think there will be a ~7/8" gap between the two.
2) My flange is relatively level but the tiled floor that the hydroseat would rest on has a significant slope. Therefore the hydroseat is going to be sitting at an angle relative to the flange below. I am going to try and dry-fit the toilet to see how it will sit on top of everything.

And just FYI - I don't think a wax ring goes on top of the hydroseat, it has a built in rubber gasket that will go right against the toilet.

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Reach4

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1) The significant gap between the top of the flange and the bottom of the hydroseat. At the worst point I think there will be a ~7/8" gap between the two.
2) My flange is relatively level but the tiled floor that the hydroseat would rest on has a significant slope. Therefore the hydroseat is going to be sitting at an angle relative to the flange below. I am going to try and dry-fit the toilet to see how it will sit on top of everything.
Wax will adapt. You can hand-mold the wax before pushing the Hydroseat into the wax, if you don't want to totally rely on squishing.

And just FYI - I don't think a wax ring goes on top of the hydroseat, it has a built in rubber gasket that will go right against the toilet.
Good point. I think I had learned that at some point, and then forgot. I suspect a little wax would not hurt, but should not be needed.

Do you think you would drill the tile, or use long appropriate screws through the holes in the ring part?

Placement will be more critical than with a regular repair flange, because you will not have adjustablity as you do with t-bolts in a slot.
 
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dsc3507

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Just to point out that the Oatey extender that I mentioned in the article will work in PVC, ABS, or cast iron. The item mention uses rubber and while it may last a good long time depending on what chemicals you use in the toilet I don't like relying on a rubber seal. It gets the job done but personally I would not be comfortable with it.
 

Mr. Grieves

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Wax will adapt. You can hand-mold the wax before pushing the Hydroseat into the wax, if you don't want to totally rely on squishing.


Good point. I think I had learned that at some point, and then forgot. I suspect a little wax would not hurt, but should not be needed.

Do you think you would drill the tile, or use long appropriate screws through the holes in the ring part?

Placement will be more critical than with a regular repair flange, because you will not have adjustablity as you do with t-bolts in a slot.

Dry-fit went ok, there is a bit of wobble but a shim or two should fix. Problem is that because of the uneven tile floor I am not confident that I am getting a solid seal between the toilet and gasket of the hydroseat.
 

Mr. Grieves

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Just to point out that the Oatey extender that I mentioned in the article will work in PVC, ABS, or cast iron. The item mention uses rubber and while it may last a good long time depending on what chemicals you use in the toilet I don't like relying on a rubber seal. It gets the job done but personally I would not be comfortable with it.

Ah, then that looks like a good product, but I would still have to repair the existing flange first before I could use it.
 

dsc3507

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What is broken on the existing flange? Can you get bolts in it. It is hard to see in the photo. The Oatey extension just pushed into the existing 4" opening and then tightens to seal.
 

Mr. Grieves

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What is broken on the existing flange? Can you get bolts in it. It is hard to see in the photo. The Oatey extension just pushed into the existing 4" opening and then tightens to seal.

The keyways on both sides are broken and buckled upwards. I could get bolts in but would not trust them to hold.
 

Mr. Grieves

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I think I am going to go with the hydroseat. I will use a few brass washers as shims under a few of the feet to level it out and hopefully improve the seal between gasket and toilet horn.
 

WJcandee

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The product install video shows a wax ring on top of the existing flange and thus below the Danco product, while the rubber gasket in the thing purportedly grips the toilet horn and thus doesn't need wax above the Danco thing. How well this works in practice...dunno. It doesn't seem high enough to me from the photos, but I guess you will find out and tell us.

 

Mr. Grieves

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Once I decided to go for it the install was pretty straightforward.

I decided to secure the device through the tabs into the surrounding tile. That way if I have to remove it at some point and try something else I can just take it off and my flange will be back in the same condition as I started. It was a bit tedious to measure and mark out the orientation exactly how I needed but after that installation was pretty quick. I put a standard wax ring on top of the existing flange, put the hydroseat on top and compressed it by hand until the tabs made contact. Then I just secured with tapcons alternately tightening each one with a screwdriver. As I mentioned I used brass washers under a couple of the feet to make it more level. Once the hydroseat was in place I dropped the toilet on top and that was it. Because of how uneven the floor is I used several shims to prevent the toilet from rocking but now it is solid.

I was a little wary of the seal as well but now that it is in place I am not sure how to verify that it is tight. I have flushed it multiple times throughout the day and haven't seen any leaks and there is no smell of sewer gas. So far so good. I am going to hold of from putting silicone around the base for a couple of weeks just to confirm everything is working as it should.

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Reach4

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I am going to hold of from putting silicone around the base for a couple of weeks just to confirm everything is working as it should.
Rather than using silicone, you want an acrylic caulk such as Polyseamseal. Try searching for that word in the search box above.
 
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