What to do about washing machine hookup in condo?

[guggie]

Hi there, I live in a garden level condo w/ one unit above us.

We've had years of low-level, vague problems since buying our condo. This includes things such as our clothes carrying a strange stench no matter how much we wash them or how often I cleaned the washing machine. We even bought a new washing machine.

Eventually, we discovered the laundry room was flooding...and based on the look of it once we tore out the walls, it's been going on for years. Seems the washing machine has been backflowing behind the walls...but not a flash flood kind of way and not all the time.

Anyway, thanks to ripping out the walls, I can see now we just have a single pipe to hold the hookups and a 90 degree elbow to the sewer drain. No p-trap and no vent.

What can be done about this? We don't have any other pipe. The unit above us has one pipe as well, and hers was done properly w/ a p-trap and vent to the roof. Ours does not go to the roof. We do not have any legal right to touch her pipe.

What in the world??

 

[guggie]

Here is a photo of the situation. I put in a new joint/pipe (original wasn't even glued properly) and new box, new pex, just with the hope that it would at least tide us over and stop the floording. But all it did was confirm none of that is the problem and that we can't keep ignoring it. I've got it capped right now due to the odor and I turned off our water.

The pipe on the right is for the upstairs unit. It does go to the roof. It has a washing machine hooked up to it right above us. You can reach up into the wall and touch her p-trap on it.

So we literally just have that little pipe there on the left.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mliu]

I would think that if there have been years of flooding inside your walls, there would be much more obvious damage including black mold. Yet I really can't see much in that photo.

Since you can reach up into your wall and touch the upstairs condo's P-trap, it probably has been installed below her floor (which I believe is a code violation). So perhaps your P-trap is below your floor (and vented downstream)?

My first recommendation would be to hire a licensed plumber to scope your drain line and find out if (A) it was properly built; and (B) if there's an obstruction that's causing it to back-up or drain slowly. You didn't say how long you've owned the condo. There may be some legal recourse against the builder and/or seller if it can be proven that the plumbing was not built to code. That's another reason why you need to hire a licensed plumber: so you have an independent 3rd-party professional to witness and document anything that's wrong with the plumbing. But if you keep attempting your own repairs, you may not correctly fix the problem plus you are destroying evidence of possible prior malpractice in the process.

 

[guggie]

I'm so sorry, I wasn't very specific in my wording.

The pipes have been camera'd. We have no p-trap. It's a 90 degree elbow and then straight to the drain.

The damage was very bad, you're looking at the kitchen wall on the other side which has been replaced multiple times. And the eaten away wood isn't really visible in the far away photo. All 3 walls were demolished, basically. We should really be re-framing based on how damaged the wood is, but one of the walls is load bearing and the unit has foundation problems so we are in the constant process of deciding how much is necessary to just keep living here for a bit until we cut our losses versus a complete flip.

 

[guggie]

You could say...I have some reservations about licensed plumbers. We've been trying to identify the flooding (caused standing water randomly in our kitchen) for 3yrs now. We've hired tons of licensed plumbers w/ good reviews and none of them thought to find this. We've had the entire unit camera'd...one plumber told us the roof vent was ours...I had to go through legal hoops to find the blueprints to the units from the city to confirm it belongs to the other unit owner.

We finally found this b/c after paying $500 to get a "don't know shrug" from the last plumber, we decided to just rent equipment and run every single line, and start changing out every single line. Ripped out the entire wall and got a good look at everything. And realized it's just a free standing pipe lol!

But yeah, I'm in the hole thousands w/ plumbers. Kind of pissed.

 

[guggie]

Anyway, from my standpoint, I'm noticing a distinct lack of viable choices. My guess is, even if we somehow have enough space under the other unit's setup, we would still have to change out that entire pipe from our drain up to the roof for a 3" to make it work. Or do a short wet vent only. Or basically figure out how to put in our own vent tied into hers from the roof. Which would require things such as dismantling the roof (common area) and the other unit's walls lol!

So, obviously feeling pissed and stumped, I figured I'd scratch my head on a plumbing forum and see what others have to say.

 

[Mliu]

If there is no trap on your washer drain standpipe, haven't you been getting sewer gas coming back into your laundry room all these years?

If there's absolutely no way to install a proper vent to the outside, then the only other solution I can think of is to install a laundry sink next to your washer and drain your washing machine into the sink. Plumb the sink into that drain pipe with a proper P-trap and use an AAV to vent the trap. Not a very elegant solution, but at least it will solve your problems.

 

[Reach4]

AAV to the left or right of your box. Shown to the right in this sketch.

New rules would be for the pipes and trap to be 2 inch instead of 1.5. It would probably still work with a standpipe and trap with 1.5 inches. My sketch is not to scale. You need at least 18 inches for the standpipe before the trap.

Mliu's suggestion of the laundry tub would be best. That would be per-code with 1.5 inch.

 

[OLD TIMER]

ouch.

 

[Mliu]

AAV to the left or right of your box. Shown to the right in this sketch.

View attachment 53473

It's my understanding that an AAV is not permitted to vent any drain pipe receiving the discharge from a pump. That's why I recommended the laundry sink solution. Washer pumps into the sink, then the sink drains by gravity through the trap which is vented by an AAV.

 

[Reach4]

It's my understanding that an AAV is not permitted to vent any drain pipe receiving the discharge from a pump. That's why I recommended the laundry sink solution.

As long as you have your airgap, the AAV is allowed where AAVs for laundry tubs are, as far as I can tell.

The tub does have its advantage of making sure that the washer does not overwhelm 1.5 inch drain pipe.

 

[guggie]

So, I consulted w/ yet another plumber. His best case scenario was to run a vent pipe up to the roof and attach above the other unit's plumbing. We got into the attic and into the other unit's crawlspace, but confirmed it's not possible. The entire building is a mess. They even ran side vents b/c the roof vent isn't fully operational. Old construction was left in place, too (more of that unexplained redundancy) so we have lateral pipes all over the wall and can't confirm exactly what's happening w/o opening the walls of the upper unit. It's a bit hard to understand what they were thinking...prior coding would not have permitted any of this, either. Her p-trap is really a mess, too, and she confirmed she's had years of troubles. She dry cleans most of her laundry due to it.

Anyway, there is no way to get a pipe from the roof down to the ground w/ our current setup so we are waiting to hear back from the plumber again. It's a small condo so the laundry room holds a washer/dryer and a water heater right next to it. It's like a "shuttered" closet to better describe it. There's no space for a sink or at this point I'd gladly take the idea, although technically that wouldn't be to code for us.

And mliu, yes, we've had problems w/ air quality and our washing machine being one big pile of stench. My guess is this was even going on before we bought the place, and only in recent years did it worsen. We just didn't notice b/c the ongoing damage was closed in behind walls. All 3 walls are involved.

 

[Reach4]

The flooding was not due to venting.

 

[Terry]

You best bet for an easy solution may be to use 2" on the standpipe to give you more volume when the washer pumps out, and vent your p-trap with an AAV. Heck, maybe even upsize above the trap to 3", making it sort of like the sink.
A laundry sink would be even better.

 

[guggie]

The flooding was not due to venting.

I'm inclined to agree w/ you, but at this point we have run through every line in the entire house and can't find "it." All we know is it's somehow connected to that pipe jutting out of the ground w/ the washer box on it. Some slow back flow, or transient stoppage. We have had a camera down it multiple times, run water, flushed toilets, etc, and can't figure it out.

 

[Reach4]

While putting in the new standpipe, I would make that between 30 and 42 inches tall, unlike my sketch. Add that to Terry's bigger pipe suggestion, and that will make it less likely to overflow. IPC, which MO uses, allows a standpipe of up to 42 inches for a washer.

It's the trap's job to stop smells from coming up.

The new standpipe could come into the room space rather than using the wall box. It would need some support that way. Wall boxes are usually made for 2 inch pipe.

For the path cleanout, you could get your neighbors's standpipe temporarily closed with a test plug. Then run a medium Brasscraft drain bladder down your drain pipe. That will use pressure, which could move a partial blockage. Have some spotters to make sure the water is not popping out elsewhere. I am not a plumber.

 

[guggie]

Ok, had another session w/ the plumber over the failed idea about taking a new pipe to the roof.

At this point, the only other option he can see is to put in the AAV. It will not be to code, and he will not do it himself.

If it doesn't work or we later have to be up to code to sell the home, the last option is going to be jackhammering the cement and replacing the entire structure w/ a 3" pipe. I got the unspoken gist from him that the AAV would be the way to avoid it.

 

[Mliu]

While you're on the right track, I'm not the type of person to leave solutions to guesses and chance. In other words, you know you have plumbing problems (lack of P-trap and venting) with your washing machine drain, but neither the lack of P-trap or vent explains the flooding issue. I would want to KNOW the reason for the drainage backing-up and actively solve that problem before doing anything else. So let's examine this logically.

Certainly, some of the water leakage could have been due to the improperly glued joint. But unless it was a really bad connection, that probably wouldn't account for standing water on the floor. Nor would that explain the sewer stench on your clothes. It seems like wastewater is definitely backing up into your standpipe and overflowing on the floor. And when your washer stops pumping, it's siphoning some of that wastewater back into your washing machine, which would explain why your clothes smell.

But if the backed-up water in the standpipe was only from your washing machine discharge, it really shouldn't be smelly (because it's the same water used to wash your clothes, and some of that water always remains in your washer sump anyway). So it seems like other sewage is backing up into your standpipe as well. Which suggests the plumbing problem is larger than just your washing machine drain.

It sounds like you've tested all the drains in your condo. Perhaps the problem is due to the condo upstairs. Or a combination of events occurring in your condo and the condo upstairs (e.g., toilets being flushed at the same time).

 

[guggie]

While you're on the right track, I'm not the type of person to leave solutions to guesses and chance. In other words, you know you have plumbing problems (lack of P-trap and venting) with your washing machine drain, but neither the lack of P-trap or vent explains the flooding issue. I would want to KNOW the reason for the drainage backing-up and actively solve that problem before doing anything else. So let's examine this logically.

Certainly, some of the water leakage could have been due to the improperly glued joint. But unless it was a really bad connection, that probably wouldn't account for standing water on the floor. Nor would that explain the sewer stench on your clothes. It seems like wastewater is definitely backing up into your standpipe and overflowing on the floor. And when your washer stops pumping, it's siphoning some of that wastewater back into your washing machine, which would explain why your clothes smell.

But if the backed-up water in the standpipe was only from your washing machine discharge, it really shouldn't be smelly (because it's the same water used to wash your clothes, and some of that water always remains in your washer sump anyway). So it seems like other sewage is backing up into your standpipe as well. Which suggests the plumbing problem is larger than just your washing machine drain.

It sounds like you've tested all the drains in your condo. Perhaps the problem is due to the condo upstairs. Or a combination of events occurring in your condo and the condo upstairs (e.g., toilets being flushed at the same time).

Yeah, exactly. This is the part where we spent the last 3 years (and several thousand dollars) involving plumber after plumber, ripping out walls, dropping cameras down pipes, etc. We even had the city out multiple times to check their end. My only hope at this point is that the standpipe situation is the problem. If it isn't, I have nothing else. We've been on the roof, we've changed every single fixture in the home. You could make a "renovation nightmare" episode out of what we've been through lol.

*Edit to add, that includes the other unit owner's plumbers and insurance reps, the HOA insurance rep, etc. We've done all kinds of insane calculations, such as trying to run our washers at the same time, taking a week long break from washing, flushing toilets, draining washers one after the other, or one then waiting 5 minutes.

I've basically reached the point of Moby Dick. I practically cackled when we finally ripped that area of the wall out and I realized it's just a pipe jutting out of the wall w/ a 90 degree bend.

 

[Mliu]

I've basically reached the point of Moby Dick. I practically cackled when we finally ripped that area of the wall out and I realized it's just a pipe jutting out of the wall w/ a 90 degree bend.

Can you tell from the scope video if they used a 90° vent elbow or a 90° pressure fitting elbow (used for water supply piping) instead of the correct 90° drain elbow? That could account for water backing up in the standpipe when the washer is pumping out.

Vent Elbow:

Pressure Fitting Elbow:

Both of these make very sharp 90° bends.

What you should have installed is a proper DWV elbow for drains (not vents):

Notice how it has a long, smooth radius to the bend? That helps the water flow under gravity without backing up. It should be obvious in the video made when they scoped the line.