My brand new toilet keeps leaking

[dankoos]

I just finished a remodel of my bathroom, down to the studs. I was so proud of myself once it was complete. A few days after getting good use, we noticed a wet ceiling under the bathroom. I am 95% sure it is the toilet based on the location of the wet spot. I know the water can travel, but this is just too far from the tub/shower drain or pipes. I installed a Kohler toilet. I tiled the floor. I didn't think I could raise the toilet flange up before tiling since it was glued into the drain pipe...I think? In any event, after tiling it was below floor level. I knew I would have to raise it up using another method. On the first attempt, I used an Oatey plastic spacer ring. I caulked between the flange and the ring and put the flange screws through the spacer and down into the flange. that brought the height just even or slightly above the finished floor. I then used the larger wax ring. When I set the toilet, I could feel it squish and had to sit on it to get it flat to the floor. The floor is perfectly level so no wobbling or shimming needed. After seeing the leak, I removed the toilet and was going to use several spacers, but the thinner ones don't have those adjustable holes and the spaces for the toilet bolts don't allow the toilet bolts and the flange screw holes to line up properly. So this time I bought an Oatey spacer kit which had that same spacer and a rubber gasket which lifted it up another 1/4" or so. I again used the larger wax ring, I bolted the toilet bolts to the flange (spacer) and when I set the wax ring on top of the flange, it was almost as high as the toilet bolts, plus I again felt the squish and had to sit on it so I thought we were good this time. Two days later, water spot is back..slightly shifted from the original spot. I am about to call in a plumber which I have never ever had to do for anything (I have a Father who taught me a lot and he too never once called in a professional). Is there anything I could be missing? Could there be some sort of flaw in the toilet?

One last thing I should mention, the original flange (not sure exactly what type it is), has like this PVC material in the center which attaches to drain pipe. It is that center material that is a little crooked and doesn't allow my spacers to sit perfectly flat...they are out of level by about 1/8" or less. I figure the wax easily makes up for this does it not? Just squishes slightly more on one side than the other?

 

[dankoos]

This is what flange looked like before I set toilet the first time (after tiling)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ipwBJciwQYCgBa5h1

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

This is what flange looked like before I set toilet the first time (after tiling)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ipwBJciwQYCgBa5h1

I think the black is not part of the closet flange, and I think that would have been lifted out before dropping new wax in place.

I could be wrong.

 

[WJcandee]

I think the problem is that you're focusing on the connection between the flange and the toilet and it's probably not the problem.

Although I have to say that the spacer ring stuff isn't what I would have done. I would have just used a thick wax ring or two wax rings on a properly-sealed, properly-attached flange.

Anyway, I think you're looking in the wrong place. Perhaps something down in the closet bend is disconnected or improperly-joined or cracked or something. I would do a little research on how it is all supposed to go together with the particular piping that you have, and double-check that you did everything correctly. You sound like you have good tool skills, so it's not a big deal to cut a flange out of the closet bend using a special tool. Then you could start over and do it right. The flange should go on top of the finished floor (i.e. the base of it does), but so often it ends up below the finished floor -- so while it's improper, it's no big deal. The most practical way to deal with that is just to use two wax rings. You're not trying to create a watertight/pressuretight seal with the wax; you're trying to put wax in the gap between the top of flange and bottom of toilet so that the entire gap is filled and sewer gas won't come up into your room. So if there's an actual leak of water, it's likely in the piping or the connection of the flange to the closet bend, which is supposed to be waterproof. You sound experienced, so I'm not going to insult you by describing which kind of joining material goes on which type of pipe. But I would check to make sure that you properly-identified the pipe material and joined it with the right stuff. (Last year, in my client's $15 million mansion, I had the plumbers open the ceiling because it had been destroyed by water. I climbed up to see what they had found, and sure enough there was a bathtub drain connection in which no bonding material whatsoever had been applied to the PVC. Nothing. It had actually worked with very-sporadic use for several years. Once it got regular use, the ceiling was destroyed. And this was a job done by a well-known contractor. So it happens.)

Remember, the diameter of the toilet outlet is 2" or 2-1/8", and it's shooting into a target (the closet bend or center of the flange) that is at least 3" of diameter. There might be a teensy bit of splashing to the side, but the basic concept is that you're shooting into a much-bigger target and there is no need for a watertight seal. If your pipe/closet bend is backing up because somebody inadvertently dropped something in it during construction (most plumbers have stories of this which are legendary), well, then, yeah, there might be some overflow onto the floor, but you would have seen that when you pulled the toilet. Otherwise, assuming a free-flowing drain pipe, the connection between the toilet and flange isn't the first place to look for a leak that would come through the ceiling below.

Also, based on my experiences up in the ceilings of old houses in the past couple of years, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find that the leak is from the supply or drain piping of other fixtures besides the toilet. Although if the location is for sure directly under the toilet, that's an obvious first place to start.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ladiesman217]

I think the black is not part of the closet flange, and I think that would have been lifted out before dropping new wax in place.

I could be wrong.

That black part looks suspect to me.

This is what flange looked like before I set toilet the first time (after tiling)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ipwBJciwQYCgBa5h1

What is the drain pipe made of? Cast iron or plastic?

What is that black ring on the drain? Plastic or metal? Is it easily removed? I would try to clean that up that area as a starting point.

The next time you pull the toilet take a picture of the old wax seal.

I am not sure why you had to use extra spacers and caulking. Seems like a place for a leak to start.

I had to use two stacked reinforced wax rings on one of my 50 year old toilet replacements. The cast iron drain did not go high enough into the flange to let a single wax ring seal properly. The first wax ring dropped into the glance to the cast iron pipe and could not seal the glance to toilet connection. The second ring allowed for "the squish"

Maybe you should stop using the toilet for a few weeks. Then see if things stay dry. Maybe even turn off the water feed to the toilet at the same time in case of a toilet defect.

 

[Terry]

It looks like an old horn from a previous wax ring is setting on top of the flange. I would remove that.
I've never had luck with spacers on top of a flange.

 

[dankoos]

I think the black is not part of the closet flange, and I think that would have been lifted out before dropping new wax in place.

I could be wrong.

Two of you have said this...I am going to pull toilet off and look at that original flange again and take more pics...maybe that center part does need removed.

 

[dankoos]

It looks like an old horn from a previous wax ring is setting on top of the flange. I would remove that.
I've never had luck with spacers on top of a flange.

I am going to try this...it just seemed like a permanent part of the flange so I didn't mess with it...could be why it was crooked

 

[dankoos]

Perhaps something down in the closet bend is disconnected or improperly-joined or cracked or something.

The old toilet was working fine, we just wanted to update the bathroom. From what I could tell looking down the pipe it seemed in very good shape and is the standard PVC/ABS or whatever you call it.

 

[dankoos]

I



Also, based on my experiences up in the ceilings of old houses in the past couple of years, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find that the leak is from the supply or drain piping of other fixtures besides the toilet. Although if the location is for sure directly under the toilet, that's an obvious first place to start.

Hope this helps.

House was built in early 90's...so not crazy old. I did check supply valve (which I replaced new) and I would think I would at least see some leakage if that were the cause...plus when we stopped using bathroom after first leak the ceiling dried up (I left valve on) and there was no new leakage.

 

[dankoos]

Remember, the diameter of the toilet outlet is 2" or 2-1/8", and it's shooting into a target (the closet bend or center of the flange) that is at least 3" of diameter. There might be a teensy bit of splashing to the side, but the basic concept is that you're shooting into a much-bigger target and there is no need for a watertight seal.

Hope this helps.

I am wondering if there is part of the old cone or whatever left in there and this IS causing splashing with each flush which is bouncing out somewhere/somehow and getting to the floor?

 

[dankoos]

If my problem is the old cone/seal that was in there, I still wonder with the wax ring in there, how is the water escaping, even if it is splashing around a bit before going down the drain?

I will post more pics once I take toilet back off.

 

[WJcandee]

If my problem is the old cone/seal that was in there, I still wonder with the wax ring in there, how is the water escaping, even if it is splashing around a bit before going down the drain? I will post more pics once I take toilet back off.

When you pull the toilet up, check to see if you've got leakage on the floor.

If you don't see water on the top of the floor (or evidence of it having been there), then the problem is in the piping, starting at the level of the flange.

I'm looking forward to seeing your photos, and we're here to help. (Of all of us, if Terry has a comment or observation, as he does above, he's The Man -- it's his forum, and in my experience, he's always right. So his opinions deserve extra attention.)

 

[dankoos]

Ok, here is my update. I pulled the toilet off again and there was water underneath, no surprise there. I took a few "before" photos, one showing the water, and then the rest are after I pulled off the spacer. So the rest of the photos show the flange as it was when I pulled off the old toilet (of course the tile wasn't there previously). I need to know if that plastic stuff inside of the red flange is something that should be removed? Or any other suggestions for my leak?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/laBlodMCAJVFT0bQ2

 

[dankoos]

I am thinking I have something like this...which if I do, is glued onto the drain pipe:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Culwell...031584473795&dclid=CKydt5SxutoCFVGVAQodqmcKeQ

If that is the case, now what do I do? Or is that even the problem?

 

[WJcandee]

I am having difficulty determining the mechanism of your leak. I think you told us that the floor was level, yet it seems to be pooling away from the outlet -- a long way from the outlet. Presumably, water is getting in the area between the edge of your spacer/flange and the finished floor and that's what you're seeing below. And presumably, you have checked the toilet itself for cracks, although if it isn't causing trouble when it isn't being flushed, but is holding water in the bowl, I would expect a leak to be coming from the area closer to the wall, not far away from it, if there were a crack in the toilet.

And presumably there's no backup in the drain pipe. I think you said you tested it. If not, try pouring a couple of gallons of water in there and make sure it all goes immediately-down.

I would definitely pull that crap out from the middle of the flange. Then, I would use two wax rings, one with a funnel (which goes on top) and one without (which goes on the flange). You might even mix a thick one and a normal one. Or, you could also stack two SaniSeals, since they're easy to pull up again (which may be necessary here until we solve the problem).

But, alas, nothing is jumping out at me as a certain cause from the photos. Maybe we'll be lucky and Terry will weigh in on this.

 

[dankoos]

I would definitely pull that crap out from the middle of the flange.

I don't believe I can pull that plastic part out of the middle of the flange. I am 99% certain it is attached to the drain pipe. It has the same company name (Charlotte pipe Company) as the pipe itself which makes me believe it is all one piece. I believe the metal flange came attached to that piece and the whole assembly was glued to the drain pipe.....still not sure why it is slightly crooked.

Regardless, I too don't know why it is leaking the way it is. I am wondering if I should try one of these:

https://www.oatey.com/2376673/Product/Set-Rite-Toilet-Flange-Extension-Kits

Or just simply this:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-3-in-ABS-Twist-N-Set-Flange-43655/205855426

or this:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sioux-Chief-7-in-White-ABS-Toilet-Flange/1000164339

I have never ever had this much trouble with a toilet

 

[WJcandee]

I think you're obsessing over the height of the top of the flange, and I'm here to tell you its no big deal. What I'm not thrilled about is the apparent constriction, for no reason I can understand, of the hole in the center of the flange. If that's not a leftover piece of a funnel from a wax ring, then I don't see its purpose. But maybe I'm misunderstanding a photo.

Option 1: Try what I said with 2 wax rings or 2 sani-seals.

Option 2: Cut out the existing flange with the proper tool (there are instructions on this forum), and properly-glue-in a new good Sioux Chief or other excellent brand with a metal top ring, this time positioning it on top of the finished floor.

You didn't say whether you tested whether you might be getting overflow from a restricted pipe. Just because it worked on the old toilet doesn't mean that the greater rush of the water from a new toilet might not cause some overflow.

Still, I'm not persuaded that splashing around a wax ring would lead to that volume of water on the floor. Overflow seems more like it, or a crack in the toilet. Or that thing in the center of the pipe is diverting water past the wax.

 

[dankoos]

The only reason I suggested one of those pieces that fits down inside of the current pipe is that it will bypass whatever that is currently sitting in the center of the flange there. I really don't want to cut the pipe except as an absolute last resort (where is the link to that by the way?).

I will try testing the pipe by dumping water, any suggestions on how to get a quick volume like the toilet would produce without getting water everywhere while doing it?

If I were to cut the pipe, now that I have already cut my tile and cement board around the current flange, there would not be anything for the new flange to rest on, right? Would I have to build up underneath the new flange with wood or some other material?

Like you, I still don't get how all that water is getting under the front of the toilet and on top of the tile...the wax when I pulled off the toilet looks like it is where it is supposed to be...so where is the water escaping? This is of course assuming I don't have a blockage.

 

[Reach4]

I will try testing the pipe by dumping water, any suggestions on how to get a quick volume like the toilet would produce without getting water everywhere while doing it?

A garden hose for several minutes would check for a blockage. Its not like dropping 2 gallons in 2 seconds, but it can make up for that with time.

I don't believe I can pull that plastic part out of the middle of the flange. I am 99% certain it is attached to the drain pipe. It has the same company name (Charlotte pipe Company) as the pipe itself which makes me believe it is all one piece. I believe the metal flange came attached to that piece and the whole assembly was glued to the drain pipe.....still not sure why it is slightly crooked.

So maybe it started like this: https://www.hardwareandtools.com/ch...h-adjustable-metal-ring-spigot-udgb-4995.html

A problem with that idea is that I think Ohio typically uses PVC drain lines rather than ABS. So it seems unlikely that somebody glued an ABS closet flange into PVC.

In your photos, the top of the black seems to be at about the same level as the red ring. Then it seems to be about the same level as the top of the white spacer. Is that just the angle of the photos, or what?