Circulator Pump noise/issues

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micco

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Hi everyone,

Looking for some advice...

A few years ago we had our B&G circ pump (1/12 hp) replaced with a Grundfos UPS26-99FC 3 stage (1/6 hp). For the first 4 months it was quiet, after calling the HVAC company back they said it was air and bled the system...it didn't change anything. the following couple years it has been getting worse, and this year you can pretty much hear the circ pump throughout the home.

Also (and maybe related) since the circ replacement I constantly have to bleed a specific rad ever few weeks.

House is ~2800sqft 2 storey, 3 honeywell zone valves (i think 1 is stuck open actually), pressure is ~17-19psi.

back to the pump...if i close the supply value, the circ pump is silent again, but as soon as water flows to it, it gets noisey, reminds me of warn or un-greased bearings...
I've also opened the purge valve screw on the pump with no changes.

I'm not scared to try stuff myself, as the last time i got the pros in (2 different companies) i've had issues...

If it will help and can record a video and post it on youtube or something.
ok did a vid - sounds like cavitation?... is it shot?


Also, here is the circ pump i'm thinking of replacing it with...thoughts?
http://www.tacocomfort.com/products/variable_speed_products/007e/index.html

Any thoughts or insight would be appreciated.

Cheers!
 
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micco

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anyone? :)

I spoke with a local supply company and they advised reducing the out-line from the boiler to reduce pump caviation.
This seems to work in the sense its more quiet, but obviously increases pressure and not sure if this is common industry practice.

I feel the circ pump is oversized leading to the issues we're experiencing.

Can anyone guide me on a replacement pump?
I tired using the calculators for determining max head and flow, but its hard to figure out pipe lengths.
I'm wondering if the Taco 007e would be a good replacement for the Grundfos 26-99FC and the older B&G 100 series.

the Taco 007e states max head shut-off of 10ft...looking at graphs the 26-99 can do 30ft.

Any help would be appreciated.
thank you
 

NY_Rob

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The Taco 0010 series is more of a direct replacement for the B&G 100 with similar characteristics.
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-001...tor-with-Integral-Flow-Check-1-8-HP-3778000-p

If you have an older cast iron boiler, don't use the "e" series pumps as their permanent magnet ECM rotors attract metal particles and will fail prematurely. If you are dead set on using a ECM pump, you'll have to install a "Dirt Magnet" ($200+ device) in your system to prevent pump damage.

If you go with the Taco 0010- pull the flow check, it's not needed.

PS- do not reduce flow through your current pump by closing the supply valve!
Great way to kill your boiler.
 

micco

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The Taco 0010 series is more of a direct replacement for the B&G 100 with similar characteristics.
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-001...tor-with-Integral-Flow-Check-1-8-HP-3778000-p

If you have an older cast iron boiler, don't use the "e" series pumps as their permanent magnet ECM rotors attract metal particles and will fail prematurely. If you are dead set on using a ECM pump, you'll have to install a "Dirt Magnet" ($200+ device) in your system to prevent pump damage.

If you go with the Taco 0010- pull the flow check, it's not needed.

PS- do not reduce flow through your current pump by closing the supply valve!
Great way to kill your boiler.

Thanks for replying Rob.
Would you say the symptoms we're experiencing are from an over sized pump?

Ok I'll look into the 007 rather then the e, or just go to the 010?
Any concerns with the 007 being 1/25 hp vs the b&g 100 being 1/12? I think the 0010 was a little stronger.

Thanks again
 

NY_Rob

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^ Yeah, as I mentioned- the 0010 is a better replacement for the B&G 100 series because it's pump curve and output closely match the B&G vs. the less powerful 007 pump which would be undersized.

BTW- If you look at the pump curve charts for the B&G 100 and your existing Grundfos 26-99FC- it is also a very good match at 7.5ft of head (with the Grundfos 26-99FC set at speed 1), both pushing a tad over 10gpm.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/106189-Submittal.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/manuals/1297872762860/47830_PROD_FILE.pdf

I can't offer advice regarding the size of pump you actually need, you would need to measure the lengths of your heating loops, add in loss for elbow's, etc and come up with an actual ft. of head number.
For replacements, most just replace the existing pump with an equivalent pump, if you're going to resize the pump... you have to do the math first.

I assume your original B&G 100 lasted many years and gave adequate performance?
If so, go with it's equivalent pump made by the manufacturer of your choice.
 

micco

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ok thanks again, i understand its hard to provide advice with so many variables/infro missing - i appreciate all comments/suggestions

I can't comment on the B&G longivity, it started making noise a couple years after we purchased the home (built in 1978). However we would get a trickling sound on the 2nd floor, but the pump itself was quiet (until it wasn't).

So if the 26-99 is a good match, what would cause the noise we're experiencing? I'm assuming its cavitation.
Could their be something else at play or wrong with the pump?

I still have the B&G, i'm tempted to turn it on (unhooked to a water) to see how loud it is, or maybe even repair it.

This is our first water heat system, friends claim they can't even hear theirs running...so i'd like to get ours to that state as well.
 

NY_Rob

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Trickling sound usually indicates air in the system.

Is the current pump circulating the water, all zones are getting heat when called for?

If the pump is pushing water as it always has, could be a bad bearing, broken impeller, etc.

Are you using the pump on speed 1?
 

micco

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Trickling sound usually indicates air in the system.

Is the current pump circulating the water, all zones are getting heat when called for?

If the pump is pushing water as it always has, could be a bad bearing, broken impeller, etc.

Are you using the pump on speed 1?

ya all zones getting heat, i've confirmed thermostats and zone valves are all working - i actually cleaned and oiled the gears on one of the valves and now shuts off as it should.
Pump running on speed 1.

For the Grundfos, if parts are warn (bearings, mount, etc) would the noise go away once i stop flow, like in the first video?

I've been fighting with air in the system since the HVAC people installed the 26-99, they also removed and reinstalled a rad to replace a cracked elbow. They used shark bites to reinstall, and assured me its just as good as soldering the pipe...

I hooked up the B&G and took a video, i suspect its the motor mounts that are warn, as if i tip the unit up the sound goes away.

thoughts?

Thanks
 
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NY_Rob

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When you close down the valve, you're deadheading the pump which puts much more resistance on the pump rotor so it slows down. If the bearings were bad, that might silence them. If the noises were due to cavitation shutting down the valve probably wouldn't stop that.

Notice I'm using words like "probably" and "might?
It's hard to diagnose a noisy circulator without being there.

You can try the old mechanics "stethoscope trick"... when the pump is running- take a long screwdriver, place the metal tip against the area of the pump where the bearings are- place the round plastic handle gently against your ear. If the bearing is bad... you'll hear it screeching, grinding and galling. Move the screwdriver to different areas of the pump so you get used to the sounds it makes.

Hard to believe a "professional" plumber used Shark Bite fittings (other than for a temporary fix), maybe time to look for someone better?
 

micco

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I did the old test, and can hear sounds within. Having said that i can also hear it along the 1 1/4 pipe.

I actually have the B&G silenced - re-oiling seemed to have helped, especially the middle port...odd b/c this was the first thing i did when is started a few years back.

Maybe i'll reinstall the old pump or look at getting a taco.

Ya up here in Winnipeg, its hard to find good "wetheads". Most refered vets have retired, and everyone else specializes in forced air systems.
 
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micco

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Installed the B&G and its much quieter then then Grundfos...however.

The pump is not staying engaged when calling for heat.
I opened up the boiler relay and see the circ is set to ~120 and the current boiler temp is ~160.

Using a voltage detector i noticed the relay is not engaging the pump (not hot at the pump location on the relay or at the pump).

Does this device have some type of safety or current overload, that would stop the pump after X
amount of time?

====================

EDIT: Ended up playing with the circ setting, and it kicked in and working. Maybe the contacts were dirty and making an intermittent connection.

Now fighting with air :(
No air separator in my system, bled all the rads and still hear air in walls and rads.
Any tips from the pros? :)

Thanks
 
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NY_Rob

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^ If your reducer valve has a "fast fill" feature- bleed using that vs. the regular fill.... you need flow volume to get the trapped bubbles/pockets out.

Install a air separator, even the old school $20 Taco Air Scoop (found at Home Depot) would help.
 

micco

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^ If your reducer valve has a "fast fill" feature- bleed using that vs. the regular fill.... you need flow volume to get the trapped bubbles/pockets out.

Install a air separator, even the old school $20 Taco Air Scoop (found at Home Depot) would help.

thanks i'm not sure what you mean there by fast fill. We have a tap we open to allow water into the system. The auto fill valves were disabled as we were told they fail to function correctly.
I do have a air vent (a brass looking bell) that i'm leaving open, oddly only one of the zones...

So would i increase pressure of the system to increase the flow, to move the air throughout the system?
Maybe i can get it to the line with air vent.
 

NY_Rob

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It's tricky purging via a regular valve connected to your domestic water supply- that can reach 75-125psi!
Easy to damage your boiler!

I wouldn't recommend that approach unless you can 100% isolate your boiler from the spaceheating loops...and you've done it before and you can monitor the pressure in your loops!!

Professionals use a purge station with it's own pump that gets a good flow volume going at standard or slightly elevated (but below 30psi) pressure.

If your only option at this time is to use your domestic supply for purging- time to bring in a pro before you damage something.
 
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