Sewage smell from toilet and difficult landlord

[ziggy13]

My bathroom has had increasing sewage smell for 10-12 days. It started off faint and on/off and now it's constant, ranging from faint to strong. This is in a 3 year old condo I moved into just under 3 weeks ago. My parents visited and confirmed the smell is sewage. The smell comes from under/behind the toilet for sure.

I had my landlord over to look. He claimed he couldn't smell anything and clearly didn't believe me (e.g. asked when I'd last cleaned the toilet, asked if I flush after every time I use the toilet...). He decided he will just come back today and caulk the base.

I told him I think it's the seal. He told me I'm wrong because I haven't had water leakage. He also claimed that I can't really have sewer gas issues because I'm on the 12th floor.

Is there anything you'd suggest I do or say to persuade him to call a plumber? Other than the obvious, that caulking doesn't fix the problem?

Here's a picture of behind the toilet in case it helps, and 2 kind of showing the full toilet. I'm at work now but can take better pics later if needed.

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

That is a really nice photo of the inside toilet base. It looks to me as if water has been and is still coming in there. If the water were just on the floor, I would suspect the installer failed to apply caulk around the base, and water might came from outside. But there are also signs that there has been water at the closet bolts. I cannot see that wicking up from the floor.

I think the toilet needs to be lifted off the adapter, and the wax under the adapter replaced using enough wax. Wax can be formed if needed. A little extra wax squishing out from the adapter base would not be a problem IMO. I think too little wax was used in your case.

I am not a plumber.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

You may want to double wax ring that.

 

[ziggy13]

Thank you both for the replies. I'm hoping the visible water in that photo is enough to convince him that it needs new wax. I also closed the bathroom door and turned off the fan to try to build up sewage smell so he can't claim it doesn't smell when he comes back. It blows my mind that the owner of a $600K condo is trying to resist shelling out a few bucks to get a plumber if he's unable to just do it himself. Why risk future floor rot?!

 

[FullySprinklered]

How in the heck did you take that picture? (#3)

 

[ziggy13]

It's open in the back like that so i could stick my phone between it and the wall and take it.

 

[ziggy13]

As an update, my landlord came last night and still claims he can't smell it, even though it makes me gag. Are some people genetically immune to sewage smell?! He also seems to know even less about plumbing than me, which is extremely frustrating when he insists on assessing it himself right now instead of getting help and refuses to listen to anything I say.

I think he's just trying to not pay for a plumber. He told me he's going to ask the strata to pay for it if needed. Good luck with that. While he wastes time, I'm stuck inhaling sewage all day.

 

[Reach4]

As an update, my landlord came last night and still claims he can't smell it, even though it makes me gag. Are some people genetically immune to sewage smell?! He also seems to know even less about plumbing than me, which is extremely frustrating when he insists on assessing it himself right now instead of getting help and refuses to listen to anything I say.

It may be analogous to selective hearing. If it is going to cost him money, he can't hear it. He can't smell it. He can't see it.

However the sense of smell does often fall off with age. Can you bring in a neutral teenager to sniff things down?

I think he's just trying to not pay for a plumber. He told me he's going to ask the strata to pay for it if needed. Good luck with that. While he wastes time, I'm stuck inhaling sewage all day.

I don't know what strata are in this context, but I believe you are right about his not wanting to pay a plumber.

To fix it, consider offering to split the money and work with him. Buy wax for $5, and acrylic caulk for maybe $1o. Maybe use some masking tape to aid in applying the caulk. A pro can lay down the caulking bead in under a minute. Us less experienced people take much longer. Do the work. Put it back. Done. $7.50 and 2 or 3 hours work each (because you two are slow -- a plumber is much faster). I understand that is not how the renter-landlord thing is supposed to work, but it will be quicker and easier than trying to get him to do what he signed up for.

Is this his only rental unit?

 

[ziggy13]

It may be analogous to selective hearing. If it is going to cost him money, he can't hear it. He can't smell it. He can't see it.

However the sense of smell does often fall off with age. Can you bring in a neutral teenager to sniff things down?

I don't know what strata are in this context, but I believe you are right about his not wanting to pay a plumber.

To fix it, consider offering to split the money and work with him. Buy wax for $5, and acrylic caulk for maybe $1o. Maybe use some masking tape to aid in applying the caulk. A pro can lay down the caulking bead in under a minute. Us less experienced people take much longer. Do the work. Put it back. Done. $7.50 and 2 or 3 hours work each (because you two are slow -- a plumber is much faster). I understand that is not how the renter-landlord thing is supposed to work, but it will be quicker and easier than trying to get him to do what he signed up for.

Is this his only rental unit?

It is his only rental unit. Well, it is actually his daughter's, but she's on vacation until early October overseas.

He returned today with his wife. Both him and his wife say they can't smell it. He also had the building manager in when I wasn't home earlier, building manager also denied smelling it (since I wasn't there, I'm not sure what the circumstances of this smell test were, and when I got home from work I did notice it smelled less than usual, perhaps from landlord airing it out or maybe just a lucky day...). However, I had a friend present and he immediately agreed that it smelled like sewage. Landlord still accused me directly of making it up in my head, despite my friend being right there agreeing, and even though I let him talk to my dad on the phone yesterday as my dad also smelled it. The wife suggested that maybe I should just clean the bathroom because I'm smelling regular bathroom dirt, or that it's my shower curtain. I am 100% confident this isn't the issue as I moved in 3 weeks ago, everything is still clean, I've bleached all the surfaces, and I've obviously never had this issue in my life before. It is also clearly sewage smell coming from the base of the toilet!

I don't trust him to do any plumbing in here and I no longer feel great about having him in my house when he just seems to want to argue and accuse me of lying/being crazy. I offered to hire a plumber for an assessment and if the plumber says there's no problem, like landlord claims, I will foot the bill. If the plumber finds a problem, he can fix it or provide a quote and the landlord will have to pay. The landlord absolutely refused, which I think is telling.

The landlord was only willing to caulk the base. I explained that I don't believe this will help, since the back of the toilet is open so that the plumbing is exposed (i.e. caulking the base would be like closing a window but leaving the door open - you aren't going to contain anything). He told me that because the pipe is sealed, what I'm saying makes no sense. I literally made a video in front of his eyes showing that the part he wants to caulk won't actually seal anything and he still told me I'm wrong. I told him to forget it. Why caulk it if I'm confident it'll have to get removed soon?

I told him that I will just wait until the real landlord returns and let her sort this out, then sent her a long email explaining. So now I get to live with sewage smell for 2 more weeks. Good times.

Sorry for the giant rant but I'm sure you can understand that this is a very frustrating situation for me when I'm paying close to $2K/mo in rent for a 500sqft condo.

 

[WJcandee]

The guy paid good money for an expensive bathroom redo, using quality stuff, and he's too cheap to get a toilet reset done right? I would be looking at what my lease says about damages for uninhabitability of the apartment and what my remedies are. Also, a call to the local building department might get his attention. But since he sounds like a jerk to begin with, I suspect that you starting to put pressure on him will result in him being more of a jerk for the balance of your tenancy. And it looks like a nice joint, so maybe you want to stay there.

The greatest likelihood is that the toilet just needs to be reset, although that water concerns me because it suggests maybe a backup in the line. But you'll see when you pull it.

The smell isn't "sewage", per se. It's sewer gas, which is a bunch of gasses that float around in the sewer lines. Some of them are nasty and, frankly, dangerous in sufficient concentration. These can include hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, methane, esters, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides (see Wikipedia on the subject for more info). That's why the building codes require the wax ring or equivalent seal. In some places, like our house in the country, you can pull the toilet off and leave the line open and all you will get is the faintest whiff of something. In other places, like my little apartment in NYC, 200+ feet off the ground, the smallest breach in the wax ring will immediately cause a gas buildup in the bathroom that would choke a maggot. That's why I'm talking about "uninhabitability", because it would take any lawyer 5 seconds to convince a judge that a buildup of that stuff in your bathroom in the concentrations that you describe renders the premises uninhabitable. Seriously. You don't want to be breathing that stuff.

The primary purpose of the wax ring in a toilet installation isn't to keep water from leaking, although it may resist some splashing and such. Its primary purpose is to provide an air seal that holds back sewer gas. And you'll be amazed at how everything goes back to normal when the seal is properly-installed.

One more point: If your idiot landlord doesn't know what he's doing, he's gonna damage the toilet and maybe the appearance of the bathroom. All to save a few bucks. But stupid is as stupid does, I guess.

Now, let's compare. When my bathroom smelled like sulfur dioxide one day at the city apartment, even knowledgeable me thought it must be something else, because it was so overwhelming. Called the landlord. The rep said, "Oh, we need to reset the toilet." Less than an hour later...done. Less than 3 hours later, no smell whatsoever. That's a professional landlord with an understanding of his responsibilities and an understanding of the systems in his units. And that's how it should be. Sorry you got stuck with a douche.

 

[Reach4]

http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/h...cies/during-a-tenancy/repairs-and-maintenance

Tenants must contact the landlord or the designated contact person to report the emergency issue and have it repaired.

If there’s no response after two attempts and a reasonable amount of time has passed, the tenant may arrange to have the repairs done at a reasonable cost. While the repairs are underway, a landlord may decide to:

• Take over the repairs and pay for work done up to that point
• Allow the repairs to continue and reimburse the tenant for the full cost

Landlords are required to reimburse tenants for emergency repairs. Tenants must submit receipts to their landlord, along with a written summary of what happened in order to receive payment. If this procedure is followed and the landlord does not cover the expenses, tenants can deduct the repair costs from the rent.​

 

[WJcandee]

Okay, having read your latest post, I get it. Daddy feels he is protecting his daughter, and is an accusatory asswipe. If he's not the real landlord, then turning up the pressure may be a good strategy. He will hate you forever, but if she's the landlord and isn't totally-beholden to him, who cares?

Get out your lease and determine what self-help rights you have. Can you abate the problem and seek reimbursement? What does it say expressly about the procedure for system repairs, if anything? What does the "notice" section of the lease say? I don't know Canadian law, but here in the US, I would promptly comply with the Notice section of the lease and any requirements regarding steps you are supposed to take to obtain landlord-paid repairs. And focus on anything to do with uninhabitability.

So, if the notice section requires a certified letter to the landlord at a particular address, do that, and then email her a copy showing that it's been sent to her however it was supposed to be sent (since she's not home, and you know that).

The letter should say something like:

Dear Ms. Jones,

This letter refers to that certain lease (the "Lease") between Martha Amy Jones ("You") and Ziggy Thirteen ("Me", "I"), dated as of Whatever 5, 2017, regarding the premises at 15 Smelly Street, Somewhere, BC 123XZ5 (the "Apartment"). I am writing pursuant to Paragraphs X, Y and Z of the Lease to notify you that an (use the lease terms) Emergency Repair is necessary in the bathroom of the Apartment. Specifically, an extraordinarily-noxious odor, which I believe to be Sewer Gas, is present in that bathroom. I further believe that the wax ring in the toilet installation has degraded in the ordinary course such that it no longer sufficiently seals out Sewer Gas from the toilet installation, and such gas is now flowing into the bathroom. This situation began several days ago, and has become increasingly bad. Because Sewer Gas is normally a mixture of toxic and non-toxic gasses resulting from the decay of organic matter, and is known to include such gasses as hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, methane, esters, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides, I am concerned that the presence of such gas makes it dangerous for me to occupy the Apartment.

I have discussed the situation with Mr. Ass Wipe ("Mr. Wipe"), who I understand to be your father. He does dispute the presence of any smell whatsoever. However, I have had several people come to the apartment, and they concur that there is a strong gas odor in the bathroom.

In an effort to resolve the matter informally and with good will and in good faith, because I do otherwise enjoy the Apartment and had wanted to resolve things simply and amicably, I had proposed to work with Mr. Wipe to change the toilet wax ring ourselves as a Do It Yourself job, but he refused. I then proposed to hire a plumber to investigate the situation and replace the wax ring if he thought it necessary, and to pay the plumber's service charge myself if he determined that no repair was necessary. Again, Mr. Wipe rejected my proposal.

Given the potentially-toxic nature of Sewer Gas, I believe that its presence may pose a health threat and thereby render the Apartment uninhabitable pursuant to Paragraph ___ of the Lease. I understand that I have the right under that provision to [whatever it says, like temporarily vacate the apartment and withhold rent until the condition is repaired].

However, I do not wish to resort to such actions, nor do I wish to involve the local Building Department [or whatever it's called where you are], because it seems to me that we should be able to resolve the problem amicably and promptly. Accordingly, I hereby propose to you what I proposed to Mr. Wipe: that I call a licensed plumber to inspect and potentially repair the problem. If he finds nothing wrong, I will pay the service charge for his visit. If he proposes to replace the wax ring, and agrees to a charge of less than $250, I will have him complete the repair. If he proposes to charge more than that amount, I will contact you with his report and price and obtain your permission for him to proceed. I will pay the plumber, and I will then deduct the cost of the repair from my next rent check, providing you with his invoice and receipt for my payment.

I hope that this proposal is acceptable to you. If not, kindly consider this letter a Demand for Emergency Repair (or whatever it's called in your lease) and notice of uninhabitability pursuant to Paragraphs ___ and ___ of the Lease and the Residential Tenancy Act.

You may call me at ______, my mobile number, or email me at __________, to speed things up.

I look forward to your response. Thank you for your attention to this.

Sincerely,


Ziggy Thirteen

That's what I would do. My goal wouldn't be to have to take any legal action, but just to convey that she has certain responsibilities and she's not meeting them, and it isn't up to her Dad just to be a jerk and say, "No," and have that be final. And that you have leverage. But you're a good guy and you just want to work this out.

Something like that will get her attention, and hopefully she will just pony up and let you get it fixed professionally. YOU need to take the high road and address her respectfully but firmly like this and not be a jerk back, because that will get you nowhere.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

 

[WJcandee]

Okay, Reach, YOU ROCK. Plainly, BC has much more extensive landlord-tenant rules than do most jurisdictions in the US, where the relationship is governed primarily by contract. So I would still check the lease, but would supplement whatever is in the lease with some references to the BC law, like this:

In addition to the provisions of the Lease, I understand that the laws of British Columbia provide that in the event of a need for an Emergency Repair, which I consider this to be because of the toxic nature of Sewer Gas resulting from a broken plumbing fixture, I must contact you to request the repair. I have of course contacted Mr. Wipe, who I understand to be your designated representative, on more than two occasions, and he has expressly refused to undertake or arrange for a proper repair. Kindly consider this letter to be additional notice to you in compliance with the terms of the Lease. I understand that British Columbia law provides that if I contact you or the Emergency Contact (who I understand to be Mr. Wipe) twice and a repair is not made within a reasonable time, which it has not been, I may cause the repair to be made by a professional at a reasonable price, and deduct the cost of the repair from my rent. See Residential Tenancy Act, [SBC 2002], Chapter 78, Division 4, Paragraph 33.

I would put this right before my However paragraph above. (I put the broken plumbing fixture thingy in there, even though it's probably more misinstalled than broken per se, because the act speaks of broken plumbing fixtures as an example of an emergency repair whereas clogged pipes (which this is not) are not considered emergencies. The issue here is the toxic nature of the gas, which is a no-foolin' serious deal.)

And if the Lease doesn't have any appropriate paragraphs on this stuff, I wouldn't push it and instead would refer only to the notice provision of the lease (and the Emergency Contact if it's in there), and make sure I'm complying with the notice provision.

Good luck.

PS I noticed where Mr. Wipe said that "the pipe is sealed" so it "makes no sense". No, Mr. Wipe, the connection between the toilet and the flange is NOT sealed unless a wax ring is properly installed and not degraded (which it will do in the ordinary course over time). It may be that this toilet wasn't properly-installed, because Plumbers Don't Read Instructions and this is a non-standard way of installing a toilet, or it may be that the wax ring has degraded or otherwise lost functionality. Regardless, the pipe ain't "sealed" unless there's a good wax ring in there (or equivalent like a Sani-Seal or the like).

PPS I don't know, of course, how long ago this toilet was installed. Perhaps it was improperly-installed and there has always been a broken seal, but the level of sewer gas in the drain line pipes has risen somewhat recently, which is entirely-possible, so now it's more-noticeable.

 

[Highlander]

Before you go all legalese on him, or try to pull the toilet and fix yourself, you should check two other documents because you're in a condo situation (btw strata is the term used in BC for "condo", and often its management by extension). What are the strata bylaws (specific to your building) regarding repairs, can a unit owner do them or do they always to call a pro, do they need to notify building management etc? Also check municipal building/plumbing regulations regarding work in multiple dwelling units and who can perform those.

Typically what's inside the walls and floor is considered "common element" and its maintenance is handled by the condo/strata management, everything visible inside your landlord's unit is her responsibility, but she needs to follow rules as to who can perform repairs (even if her father knew how to reset the toilet it's possible he's not be allowed to do it). Of course most of this stuff only becomes an issue when there's a flood or some other damage, and that can get messy with the insurance companies of all the units affected. Something to be aware of.

And yes some people have a weak sense of smell, some at birth, others with age (also can be an early symptom of Parkinson's disease).

 

[Reach4]

Maybe you could suggest that you ask a member of the condo board in as an independent guest nose.

 

[WJcandee]

Before you go all legalese on him, or try to pull the toilet and fix yourself, you should check two other documents because you're in a condo situation (btw strata is the term used in BC for "condo", and often its management by extension). What are the strata bylaws (specific to your building) regarding repairs, can a unit owner do them or do they always to call a pro, do they need to notify building management etc? Also check municipal building/plumbing regulations regarding work in multiple dwelling units and who can perform those.

Typically what's inside the walls and floor is considered "common element" and its maintenance is handled by the condo/strata management, everything visible inside your landlord's unit is her responsibility, but she needs to follow rules as to who can perform repairs (even if her father knew how to reset the toilet it's possible he's not be allowed to do it). Of course most of this stuff only becomes an issue when there's a flood or some other damage, and that can get messy with the insurance companies of all the units affected. Something to be aware of.

And yes some people have a weak sense of smell, some at birth, others with age (also can be an early symptom of Parkinson's disease).

I agree completely. I was going to tell him that doing DIY plumbing work in any multiple-unit dwelling is an inherently-bad idea because if things go sideways the liability can be enormous, and that it's probably prohibited by the condo regs and/or lease and/or local regulations. But he said that the Dad already rejected that idea, so now we were on to having it done by a licensed professional.

You are correct that the there may be building repair workers on contract who could be contacted by the building manager, and/or that the building will have approved vendors, so contacting the manager is another idea. There may be a charge to the owner for any work done in the unit by building-contracted people, and they may not be cheap, but if that's the rule then that's the rule. In my building, no vendor of any kind gets past the lobby without permission from management, and they have to have an insurance certificate naming the structure owner as an additional insured before they are going to be given permission. So contacting the building manager may be the next step, but I suspect that it's up to the owner to do that, and this manager has sided with (and was probably prejudiced by) the Dad. So it's a pickle. Personally, I would do as above to get the owner's attention and hopefully agreement, and then check with the building manager to see if he has any objections to the plan to hire a licensed plumber.

 

[ziggy13]

Hilariously, I emailed actual landlord (the daughter) to update my situation and make a formal repair request. She quickly responded that she has also had a sewage smell issue, and in fact, it's such a common issue in the building that strata management sent out a mass email last year (which she forwarded to me). I'm now working with strata management and they are bringing in a plumber. Further proof to me that the landlord's parents were just lying to avoid paying for a repair, without contacting their daughter whatsoever. Also suspicious to me that the building manager never mentioned this past common issue to me.

Thank you everyone for the tips. Hopefully this will get resolved now. I work in the legal profession so I'm very familiar with the laws here. I just didn't want to resort to that within a month of my tenancy without dealing directly with the true landlord first instead of her insane and ignorant parents.

 

[WJcandee]

SO GLAD it worked out!

And I learned something about Canadian law.

Yeah, you never want to actually have to pursue legal action, but you do want to get the attention of the decisionmaker and make it clear that you know what they are supposed to do.

Highlander was right that one more kind effort to the right person might do the trick.

A few years ago, my then-g/f's doctor's people gave her a two-week rude runaround about getting her medical records when she wanted to be seen by a new doctor. She was ready to kill someone by the time she mentioned it to me, and so I got it full force. I simply wrote the doctor a very nice letter on my letterhead, briefer than the above, describing the situation and attaching a printout of what I described as a "helpful brochure" from the State of New York explaining what the doctor was required to do, how fast, and what the penalties were for noncompliance. I said that I was sure that the doctor would want to follow the law, and that I was confident that I wouldn't need to involve myself in the matter any further, and thanked him. My g/f got a personal phone call from the "unavailable" doctor literally five minutes after I faxed it. She had the records that afternoon at no charge. Friendly but knowledgeable and firm works remarkably-well a lot of the time.

 

[Reach4]

I am also pleased that this is on track.

in fact, it's such a common issue in the building that strata management sent out a mass email last year (which she forwarded to me).

Warning.... I am getting somewhat wild in my speculations below, and my speculation is not based on experience:

I wonder why others would have this smell. Do other units have the same toilet? If so, ideally whoever put in the toilets did not put in sufficient wax in many units. I hope it becomes clear that there was a void in the wax seal.

So if many have such a smell, the cause could be a systematic error by whoever installed the toilet (wax), and it could be could be a flaw in the plumbing that lets the drain lines get pressurized enough to burp gas through traps. Or both.


One thing that comes to mind is to wrap plastic all around the base and to tape it tight below the seat. Leave a flap you could untape to sniff. If the problem is burping from the toilet or lavatory, the isolated base area would not have the sewer smell concentration. The plastic could be Saran Wrap, or it could be a piece cut from thin plastic drop cloth.

But could it be something else other than wax? Where the porcelain meets the porcelain, there is a rubber seal. Possibly a little thick silicone or plumbers grease could help seal any tiny imperfection there. That is not the normal practice. I did that with a Toto Unifit adapter, and your black adapter may be a little like the Toto Unifit in that aspect. I figured it could not hurt, and I had my tube of Molykote 111 handy. This idea is even wilder probably, and it would only explain the multi-unit symptom if there was a bad run of toilets which have too big of clearance where the rubber meets the porcelain.

What I would strongly hope is that there is not some additional problem that is not fixable from inside the bathroom. We really want to hear that the wax fixed it. And then we want to hear that wax fixed it for the other units.

 

[Harrygbh]

As an update, my landlord came last night and still claims he can't smell it, even though it makes me gag. Are some people genetically immune to sewage smell?! He also seems to know even less about plumbing than me, which is extremely frustrating when he insists on assessing it himself right now instead of getting help and refuses to listen to anything I say.

I think he's just trying to not pay for a plumber. He told me he's going to ask the strata to pay for it if needed. Good luck with that. While he wastes time, I'm stuck inhaling sewage all day.

Since its a rental call the housing authority in your city and tell them. It's not JUST sewer gas its Methane gas as well which can make u very ill as well as being combustible in high concentrations.