Need Advice About River Water Pump Setup

Users who are viewing this thread

Rayzen

New Member
Messages
17
Reaction score
1
Points
1
Location
Granite Falls, Washington
I live alongside a river in the Pacific Northwest (Washington) and have been pumping water out of it, every summer, in order to water my lawns and veggie garden. It has worked great.

The river lies about 100 feet, horizontally, from the yard, and about 30 feet below the level of the yard (We are situated on a high bank above the river, itself).

I have always used two pumps in tandem, each one being a 1/2 h.p. shallow water jet pump, with the output of the second pump going into a pressure tank. The first pump is located at the same level as the river, but about 65 horizontal feet, next to the bank, and the second pump is in a pump house, up on the lawn, about 30 feet above the first pump. The pumps are activated by a regular pressure switch which I adjusted to about 35 p.s.i.

The system has been working great, until just a few days ago, when one of the pumps finally had a bearing seize up. I might mention that the motor and pump were very old (about 35 years old), and when I tried to take it apart, the long bolts holding the motor together all snapped off, due to being rusted almost entirely through. After struggling with it for a while, I realized that I have gotten more than my money out of the poor old thing, and that the cost and hassle of trying to fix it (drilling out the broken bolts, resizing the holes, buying new bolts, replacing the seals, etc.) just wasn't worth it, making it a better choice to just go buy a new one. Then I began to wonder if I actually need a second pump, anyway. I have never actually tried to pump water out of the river with just a single 1/2 h.p. pump, so I don't know if it would work or not.

So here're my questions: 1) Do I really need to run two pumps in tandem like I have been doing, or can I get away with just hooking up the system to the one 1/2 h.p. pump that I have up in the pump house, given the distances that I have cited? I am not, by any stretch, a hydraulic engineer, so I don't know how to calculate the equipment needs for such a set-up, hence my question to you.

2) If I really should keep using two pumps, then how expensive of one do I need? I looked on Lowe's website, as an example, and I saw quite a variety of pumps and prices, ranging all the way from about $180 all the way to over $400. Obviously, I don't want to spend more than I have to, so I would like to know what I can get away with as cheaply as possible, yet having something that's not going to break down on me due to being overworked or whatever. Any recommendations on that? Some of the pumps that I saw were called 'transfer' pumps, whatever that means. Others appeared to be portable, even coming with a handle. Still others were pretty heavy duty looking, such as the ones I have been using. Not really knowing much about pumps, it would be nice to have some professional advice as to what I should shop for.

3) (This one's going to be a bit hard to explain) The pump which went bad was the one down alongside the river bank, leaving the one up in the pump house still working. If I can, in fact, get away with using only one pump, then I would actually like to be able to get away with leaving the existing pump in the pump house at the top of the river bank. This is because it is already plumbed in with metal fittings and all, ready to go, so I would like to be able to not disturb it, if possible. If I could do that, then all I would have to do is just connect the 'suction' hose from the foot valve (i.e., the input hose to the old, broken pump) to the 'output' hose (i.e., the output hose from the old, broken pump) that goes up to the pump in the pump house and everything would be good to go. This would be a really quick, easy fix, being just connecting a hose connector/reducer, which would take only about five minutes and cost probably $5 at the most. However that creates a new question: The old 'suction' hose is (I think) 1 1/2", but the old 'output' hose is (I think) 1", so is that going to create some kind of a load on the pump? It would, of course, reduce the possible maximum flow rate, but then all I'm ever running are a couple (at the most) Rain Bird sprinkler heads, so it wouldn't seem to me to be a problem. And, anyway, the existing pump which would now be doing all the work was already using that same hose as its input, before the first pump broke, so I don't see how it would change a thing.

I sure hope all of this makes some sense. And I can just imagine that most viewers/possible helpers might look at all of it and not even want to give it a read, since it's kind of a lot of explanation.

But, anyway, thanks, in advance, for your help, if you did bear with me through all of that.
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I don't see why one pump would not work. But it will need to be the one down close to the water as they will only suck from a max of about 24'. You will need a jet pump or a multistage centrifugal to build the pressure you need.
 

Rayzen

New Member
Messages
17
Reaction score
1
Points
1
Location
Granite Falls, Washington
I don't see why one pump would not work. But it will need to be the one down close to the water as they will only suck from a max of about 24'. You will need a jet pump or a multistage centrifugal to build the pressure you need.
Hi Valveman, thanks for the reply; I appreciate your time and effort.

When you say they will only suck from a max of about 24' are you talking about the 'suction' side/input side of the first pump? Or are you saying that those shallow water jet pumps will be able to push the water a max of 24' vertically, on the 'output' side of the first pump? Horizontally, the pump lies about 60' from the river/foot valve and at the same level. But then the output side of the pump has to push the water up a bank that's about 20' high, which is, of course, the vertical distance.

As stated, I don't know much about pumps, but I thought the horizontal distance isn't really a limiting factor (except for a small amount of resistance to flowing water, when the pump is running); instead, the real limiting factor is the vertical lift that the pump is it not? Or am I totally missing the boat, here?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,796
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
How about sticking a 1/2 HP submersible in a piece of 4 inch PVC with arrangements to keep the water intake out of the mud. More power-efficient. The 4 inch pipe could extend to shore, or it could begin at the top of the pump and go deeper from there.

The arrangements would depend on conditions. How much trash was your bottom pump sucking before?
 

Rayzen

New Member
Messages
17
Reaction score
1
Points
1
Location
Granite Falls, Washington
Hi Reach4. Thanks for taking the time to read all of that and then replying.

So would a submersible do the job? (pumping enough water about 100' horizontally and about 20' vertically?) That would be nice, but the whole point of what I'm trying to figure out is whether or not I can just use the one remaining pump that I have without having to buy a new pump.

I'm not so sure about just how you are picturing the 4" PVC pipe.

I know it sounds weird, but I'd never really tried using just one pump in all these years. From the start, I just figured that two pumps in tandem would be what I would need, although it was only a guess, since I don't really know what I'm doing.

The bottom pump wasn't sucking up any trash at all, before. I just tied it to a big ol' cinder block, then tossed the whole thing way out into the middle of the river. The cinder block held the foot valve far enough above the river bottom to keep it all nice and clean.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
A submersible can push water as far a needed. A jet pump can only suck water from 24' max elevation. So if you get the pump close to he water level elevation wise, a 1/2HP jet pump with 10' of suction lift can deliver about 4 GPM at 50 PSI.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,796
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
1/2 HP submersible pump in the river. You would be between the 20 and 40 ft columns since your water use is about 30 feet above the river surface. The numbers in the chart are the GPM you get at the pressure in the left column.

img_4.png
This is an example pump. A 1/2 HP 15 or 20 GPM pump would be a good match, depending on how much pressure you want up top.

IMG_6.png


I happened to snip the table from a Franklin V series manual, but you can choose other 4 inch pumps. Performance for other 1/2 HP 15 GPM submersible pumps will be similar.

For the river, the Flow inducer sleeve/shroud would be 4 inch. Since you don't care about the OD, the sleeve can be schedule 40 PVC (ID 4.026) or D2729 sewer pipe (ID 4.056), whichever is easier to get. With the schedule 40, you could add an elbow upwards if you wanted the intake farther from the bottom, or just figure a way to get the assembly up higher.

There are various ways to do a flow inducer. Some use a well seal. The flow inducer does not have to go to the top of the pump. See the picture of the green pipe in this thread: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/well-pump-for-500-gal-collection-tank.65930/
 
Last edited:

Rayzen

New Member
Messages
17
Reaction score
1
Points
1
Location
Granite Falls, Washington
A submersible can push water as far a needed. A jet pump can only suck water from 24' max elevation. So if you get the pump close to he water level elevation wise, a 1/2HP jet pump with 10' of suction lift can deliver about 4 GPM at 50 PSI.
Thanks for the reply, Valveman.

That's interesting. So why can a submersible pump push water so much farther than a jet pump? I'm just curious about how those work.

Yesterday, I went to Ace Hardware and got an in-line reducing coupler and just bypassed the old pump (the one that froze up, down along the river), just to see if the single, now-remaining, pump up on top of the river bank could do the job by itself. I just connected the old pump's 1-1/4" 'suction' pvc pipe to its 1" 'output'-side pvc pipe so that I now have a pvc pipe running from the river horizontally about 100', then about 30' up the river bank, to the 1/2 h.p. shallow water jet pump on top of the river bank.

When I switched it on, I got only a mild, low pressure stream of water out of it that reached about 25 feet, but it wasn't enough pressure to even pop up the Rainbird sprinkler head in my lawn. And, this morning, I got even less pressure, with the water going only about 10'.

I primed it by connecting the big blue 'yard hydrant' to the house city-water supply, until the pressure tank filled. I'm assuming there's no such thing as a pump being 'half primed,' right? It would seem that a pump is either primed or it isn't and, if it isn't, then it is just sucking air. So I don't have to worry about there being a priming problem. From what you said, it looks as though I simply am trying to pump water higher than what the pump can do (about 24'), so what I need is a submersible pump.

What about a so-called 'booster' pump? I'm not even sure just what those are for, except, as the name implies, to boost the water pressure. Would one of those be cheaper than buying a submersible pump? And would that do the trick? If it would do the trick, then maybe it would be easier than putting the submersible pump down in the river. I'm not sure just where it would go, though.
 

Rayzen

New Member
Messages
17
Reaction score
1
Points
1
Location
Granite Falls, Washington
1/2 HP submersible pump in the river. You would be between the 20 and 40 ft columns since your water use is about 30 feet above the river surface. The numbers in the chart are the GPM you get at the pressure in the left column.

View attachment 35724 This is an example pump. A 1/2 HP 15 or 20 GPM pump would be a good match, depending on how much pressure you want up top.

View attachment 35722

I happened to snip the table from a Franklin V series manual, but you can choose other 4 inch pumps. Performance for other 1/2 HP 15 GPM submersible pumps will be similar.

For the river, the Flow inducer sleeve/shroud would be 4 inch. Since you don't care about the OD, the sleeve can be schedule 40 PVC (ID 4.026) or D2729 sewer pipe (ID 4.056), whichever is easier to get. With the schedule 40, you could add an elbow upwards if you wanted the intake farther from the bottom, or just figure a way to get the assembly up higher.

There are various ways to do a flow inducer. Some use a well seal. The flow inducer does not have to go to the top of the pump. See the picture of the green pipe in this thread: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/well-pump-for-500-gal-collection-tank.65930/
Wow, thanks for that info., Reach4.

So it looks like a 1/2 h.p. submersible pump would do the trick, I guess. Not knowing anything about pumps, I'm not sure just why a submersible pump can do the job, but not a 1/2 h.p. jet pump can't, but I'll take you guys' word for it.

If you would take a look at my reply to Valveman's response to my post, you'll see what I tried, yesterday, and the results I got, which were disappointing, but not surprising, since it was in line with what you guys warned me about. And since I spent only five bucks on an inline coupler and I took only 1/2 hour to go get it and install it, I thought it would be worth a shot.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,796
Reaction score
4,413
Points
113
Location
IL
So it looks like a 1/2 h.p. submersible pump would do the trick, I guess. Not knowing anything about pumps, I'm not sure just why a submersible pump can do the job, but not a 1/2 h.p. jet pump can't, but I'll take you guys' word for it.

A submersible pump will have centrifugal stages in series, and each stage serves as the input to the next.

Search for information on venturi pumps, and you will see the are a less positive design. Centrifugal pumps are not positive displacement, but venturi pumps seem even more tenuous/magical. And lossy.

I am sure that the submersible below the water will never need priming.

It is the nature of water that you can generate a lot of pressure. There is a limit to how much vacuum you can draw. Another thing we could say is that it is easier to push water than to pull water.

One other thing... you probably will not hear the submersible pump from any distance.
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
A jet pump can also push water a long ways, it just can't suck it from very far. Why can't you move the one good pump you have down close to the water level where the old pump was? It will work from there. It still may not "push" as much water and pressure as you want, but it will work much better.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks