Replace tank or replace toilet?

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KenInCa

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We have a 3 year old Toto Drake (cst744sg). My wife hates it, and yesterday broke the upper tank (these two items are not related :)). She hates the CEFIONTECT, which she never used anything abrasive or acidic on, or anything else that they recommended against using, yet turned into a surface that seems almost stickier than glue. So she always double (at least) flushes waste, wasting a lot of California water.

I wanted to just replace the broken tank, something I feel I can easily do myself. I ordered a replacement from HD, so total cost will be only about $100. She wants to replace the toilet with something that will self-clean better, plus she'd like to get a "comfort height" model which she believes will be, well, more comfortable. That's a lot more money, obviously, plus I'll get a plumber to install it. But I'm not sure what to recommend.

The AS Vormax is appealing because it seems it really does self-clean well, but I am very much against buying something so complicated, and for which parts are expensive and not readily available. I'd like to recommend a Toto, but it has to be one without CEFIONTECT or I know she won't consider it. Plus I need to be able to convince her it would do a good job of self-cleaning, so perhaps using their Double Cyclone flush. But I couldn't find any. I thought I had, because the Vespin II spec page doesn't mention CEFIONTECT, but all the listings for it show CEFIONTECT, except the Ebony one (which I know better than to suggest to her).

Is there anything I'm missing, or should I just insist on replacing the tank and keep using (and double-flushing) the Drake?
 

Jadnashua

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IN all its wisdom, Toto now calls their special glaze by the same name used internationally, and is losing the marketing impetus they had with CEFIONTECT in the USA. But, it's the same thing. Many of the other manufacturers have similar glazes available, some standard, some optional.

FWIW, the glaze is still essentially glass, and CEFIONTECT is just one that ends up being microscopically smoother so things don't stick as well compared to a normal glaze. I can't imagine what might make it 'sticky'. You might consider testing the pH of your water. If it's acidic, it could etch the finish on any toilet over time and make it rough, and therefore harder to clean. If you have really hard water, that, too, can make ANY toilet harder to clean as it would become rough as minerals became deposited over time. That can be cleaned off.

Toto has many toilets that are either ADA or comfort height. Personally, the toilets I have with CEFIONTECT stay MUCH cleaner and are easier to clean when required verses the older ones I lived with for years that had a conventional glaze on them. And, the oldest one is now about 15-years old and still going strong. I've replaced the flapper valve and the fill valve seal more than once, but consider that normal maintenance, and quick and easy to perform. Streaks in a toilet is very diet and personal digestive tract related. Low-flow toilets tend to have more of an issue than the older ones that might have used as much as 4x more water per flush since there's literally much less water flowing over the surfaces to clean up the sides.
 

KenInCa

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So 'CeFiONtect' is the same thing as CEFIONTECT? So there's no Toto without it, I guess.

I wonder if it isn't the CEFIONTECT at all, but the nature of the way the Drake flushes (compared to our old Kohler, also a 1.6gpm model)? The Drake has a bunch of small streams coming from the top vs a large (single? double) streaming action on the Kohler.

I don't have any pH strips around, but that's not a bad idea. I'll try to pick up some one of these times and test it. Though come to think of it, that wasn't a problem with the Kohler. (The Kohler's problem was that it was not evacuating the bowl of all waste and paper at least 50% of the time.) Our water is pretty neutral hardness-wise, if anything it's slightly soft.

It seems Toto doesn't make any 1.6gpm models with the Double Cyclone flush, only 1.28 or lower. I'm afraid I might end up getting one that she hates even more, if it really isn't CEFIONTECT that's the problem but the amount of water available for the flush. I think I might be better leaving well enough alone, and just replace the tank. (Though now that I think about it, for the first 3-4 months at least, the Drake was fine, always leaving a completely clean bowl. That's why she/we started blaming the CEFIONTECT in the first place.)

Thanks for the info and ideas.
 

Reach4

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Jadnashua

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One thing that affects how well any toilet works is whether the bowl is properly filed prior to flushing. Some common things that can affect that are: the hose from the fill valve is not going into the overflow tube; that hose is not being held above the top rim of the overflow pipe; or the refill valve was replaced with an inappropriate version. Using the wrong flapper valve can also mean the toilet is not getting the designed water flow and volume.

The 'II' designations on Totos use their cyclone flush which has no 'rim' and points the bowl rinse so that it swirls around and down the bowl, giving it better wash than the previous versions. It also only comes with their special glaze.

To test the bowl for proper fill...note the current bowl level, then slowly pour water into the bowl to see if the level rises and stays there. If it does, then something's amiss.
 

KenInCa

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Thanks, @Reach4, that's great to know. Though admittedly, g-max, e-max, cyclone -- all these flushing systems, it's difficult to know which one actually would do the best job of cleaning.

@jadnashua, I can't do that test now, with the broken tank. But the water spot in the toilet was quite large and high, covering most of the bowl, so I'd guess it was fine. All the parts are original, and a very good professional plumber installed it, so I don't think that was a problem.

I do like the 'II' cyclone flush videos I've seen, and think that even with CEFIONTECT she'd probably find she's happier with one of those. However, personally *I* don't like the small water spots in the 1.28GPF models -- it's a personal thing. So I'm not sure I'd be happier. I guess there's no perfect toilet for us. Thanks again.
 

Wallijonn

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Your wife hates it? Then replace the whole thing. May I suggest a man's toilet: the dual cyclone "Tornado" Drake II, CST454CEFG#01 or CST454CEF.

She might like the looks of the Entrada more, though.

It also only comes with their special glaze.

CST454CEFG (C454CUFG Elongated bowl) With CeFiONtect ceramic glaze
CST454CEF (C454CUF Elongated bowl) less CeFiONtect ceramic glaze.

https://terrylove.com/pdf/cst474cefg-specs.pdf

Don't worry about the water spot size. It's the flush that matters.
 
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KenInCa

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Thanks, @Wallijonn. I should have updated this thread. We've decided to just replace the tank, mainly because after further reading of reviews, she thinks she might like the 1.28GPF models even less. And I've read more reports of occasional clogging with them. (Our old Kohler, one of which we still have, has a small water spot size. Without getting into details, let me just say that there are times when I find that quite annoying.) So overall we've decided to stick with the devil that we know. (By the way, it seems that just like the Vespin II, the Drake II is available only in Ebony without the CeFiONtect glaze. I guess they figure it doesn't matter if the bowl looks clean or not, because who could tell?)
 
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