Something to Ponder...

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Jadnashua

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Noble brought out their membrane in the 1980's as did Schluter...Noble a few years before. They used their components in a very similar manner with a clamping drain because nothing else was available. Schluter, from the beginning, used thinset as the medium to hold it all together and seam all of the seams, except at the clamping drain...Noble used their sealant in a tube for all seams (or, not sure when it was introduced), their adhesive in lieu of thinset.

Schluter Kerdi hadn't been around all that long when they developed their drain...tried to get it manufactured, nobody believed it would be sell enough to be viable, and they ended up building their own means to have it produced. It took Noble, and everyone else nearly two decades to come out with similar drains. Now, in addition to Noble and Schluter with surface membranes and bonded drains, in the last several years USG, Laticrete, Noble, and Mapei have all come out with similar membranes and drain assemblies (and maybe others). All good companies. All reliable products. All produce a shower that passes all industry tests. Imitation is often considered a form of flattery. All of these things work, and most of the newcomers (to this, not to the tile industry) also allow their system to be installed over suitable stable substrates (which includes gypsum board -aka drywall) AND the use of unmodified thinsets to do it.

Some people have their preferences, as they are not all identical - a patent only protects a company for so long from direct competitors, and that is normal. But for some to call a product junk, is both misguided and makes me question their credibility, especially after using the products for numerous years successfully.

I have no financial interest in any products, have purposely tried to expand my knowledge by attending manufacturer workshops on their products to understand how they work and to get some first-hand experience with them - many of the instructors in these workshops have been in the business for 30-years or more, and have talked to the engineers that made these products possible, and understand them far better than the average person - IOW, a very good place to learn the basics of how they were designed to be used. One can know that, and not be highly skilled at using them. I've used them more than once. I do not solicit jobs, nor get paid for it, but having helped make it possible to shoot a missile down with another, I have a good idea of how to examine different products, understand what the manufacturer is saying, and to be able to weigh pros and cons of various things. One learns theses things by having an open mind, talking AND listening to people, and learning to anticipate and control the consequences of any decision. There is a system to these things...it takes engineering, a good product, and proper installation to get the full advantage of them. Mix and match doesn't always work, or provide the best alternatives - sometimes, it's the only way. That way is not fixed, nor should not be limited, nor should alternatives be ignored, which is what John Whipple is trying to do here.

A forum is a place to learn, not to be badgered by bullies. I know that over the years, and it will continue, that I learn as much or more than I try to give back, and that is: there's more than one way to succeed.

FWIW, if you want reliable advice, think about it and try to be specific. A general question will elicit a general answer OR, as in John's case...his way of doing something, which may not address your concerns, budget, skill set, or timeframe. There are alternatives that work. Understand them, then make a decision on if it will work for you in your situation. Then, ask more. Often, the question asked is not the question that is really needed. It takes some give and take, not being berated or ignored, to come up with a plan that will work for your project, budget, timeframe, needs and desires. If you didn't want options, or already knew how to do it, why would you come here and ask questions in the first place? Ignoring all options may also mean loosing an opportunity. What works for a pro as second nature, may not be the best way for a DIY'er on his first try to attempt.
 

Eurob

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Something to ponder .......


After few years of pushing his -- John Whipple's -- idea of what constitutes an important procedure in building a reliable long term use shower enclosure , it seems that all the manufacturers are including it now in theirs recommendations .


Flood test the shower pan

Not bad -- quite an accomplishment -- if you asked me .

Before I would question John's motives of '' bullying '' his personal believes of what constitutes proper building procedures , I would look at trying to understand the benefits . It is one thing to recommend in general -- putting together a general set of rules -- and it is a much more different thing to recommend and DO a specific requirement(s) to a specific installation ..... I could also add the importance of making the different products -- not related to each other -- from different manufacturers work in harmony .
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, ALL plumbing codes that I'm familiar with, require a flood test. It should not have to be something that gets pushed...it is a fundamental requirement to pass the plumbing inspection. Whether one chooses to ignore that is a personal thing, but does not take away the code requirement, even if not enforced. This is not something that the manufacturers of the products typically cover...they do not tell you how to install your drain pipes or p-trap or shower valves in their instructions, or tell you that you should get it inspected first, either.
 

Eurob

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Something to ponder.......


It is true , plumbing codes require flood test for 15minutes.

John was going for 24hours -- the recommended time period from the waterproofing manufacturers -- . Then from the experiences -- membrane , workmanship or otherwise -- with flood testing on hands projects , he decided that a 72 hours flood test period would cover in a reliable way all the issues encountered . For that , I will give him the proper respect :)

Well done John , the recommendations from the waterproofing manufacturers -- tile and stone related -- do reflect now a 24 hour flood test period .

A highly regarded plumbing contractor form QuartzbyAco -- John Whipple
 
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ShowerDude

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Jim knows squat about flood tests.

Jim does not work in the plumbing nor tile industry.

Jim DOES get a little bored and reads a lot of tech data from all over the web in his retirement from the spring retention field.

very different from working in the construction industry and having actual experience. such as the wheel goes round.


Great with spell check and certainly can type at least 40wpm...
 

Jadnashua

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Jim knows squat about flood tests.

Jim does not work in the plumbing nor tile industry.

Jim DOES get a little bored and reads a lot of tech data from all over the web in his retirement from the spring retention field.

very different from working in the construction industry and having actual experience. such as the wheel goes round.


Great with spell check and certainly can type at least 40wpm...
And, he knows this how? We've never met. FWIW, I actually know how to spell and punctuate things...a result of education and study.

If you want a little counterbalance...just read all of the problems people have with tiled and especially shower installs done by 'professionals', which in our society only means that they are getting paid for it. While there are training courses and certification courses, in most places, you can call yourself a pro by plunking down some money and maybe buying a bond. IOW, it is no guarantee that any job will be done right. Certainly, there are professionals out there in the true sense, but it is more than making something look good on the outside...it takes a full design and build of the whole thing to make it successful. For a DIY'er, on his first, and maybe only tile job or shower, following industry guidelines is the best starting point as is following the manufacturer's instructions. Only after a lot of experience are you likely to understand enough to successfully mix and match products. And, even then, since things change, what works today, may not work tomorrow. There is a good reason most manufacturers do not suggest you mix and match. There is no way they can test all of the permutations, and, those other manufacturers do NOT inform their competitors that they've changed something, so what might have worked, no longer does. IOW, you need to constantly keep up, which is one reason why I have been going to the manufacturer sponsored workshops when I can...to get the latest info on how things work and what may have changed, or what's new.
 

Eurob

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jadnashua said:
For a DIY'er, on his first, and maybe only tile job or shower, following industry guidelines is the best starting point as is following the manufacturer's instructions. Only after a lot of experience are you likely to understand enough to successfully mix and match products. And, even then, since things change, what works today, may not work tomorrow. There is a good reason most manufacturers do not suggest you mix and match. There is no way they can test all of the permutations, and, those other manufacturers do NOT inform their competitors that they've changed something

Something to ponder......

If I understand you the right way , only after a lot of experience someone would successfully understand enough how to mix and match different products . It is very likely to recommend then ---- not to use ---- Noble's or Schluter's waterproofing membranes to DIY'ers . They should follow the guidelines of the mortar manufacturer which in one of the latest changes , do have -- most of them -- a suitable waterproofing membrane . Same manufacturer products -- no mixing -- for the application .
 

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Did you notice that Laticrete lists drywall as a suitable substrate for their waterproof membrane and unmodified thinset to hold it together? They were the company that essentially introduced modified thinsets to the world. I'd guess they know something about them and how they work. If you are bent on using a modified thinset and you want to use Schluter's products, a non-latex modified mortar works just fine, and if you discuss it with them, will get their full blessing. Mapei wants you to use one of their rapid (non-latex) modified thinsets. It all depends on your risk tolerance. It is a know fact that a latex modified over a waterproof membrane and a nearly impervious tile on top will take a very long time to dry out. Works fine if you can afford to wait, or use the appropriate mortar that works just fine, as specified by the manufacturer of the membrane system and carry on. The advantage is, in a typical shower where the membrane is used, small tiles are the norm on the floor where you walk, so things can dry a lot quicker than say on a wall with a 12x12 or a 24x24" tile or larger tile. You aren't walking on a wall, so the fact it's not fully solid in short order isn't as much of an issue.

It's a risk/benefit decision...Schluter chose less risk. Unmodified mortars have been in use for centuries to hold typical ceramic, porcelain, and glass tile in place. In the engineered situation, with today's methods, it still works. Step outside that box, and yes, a modified is required for longevity. This is why when using a system, it's best to use it as designed and not try to second guess the manufacturer and the millions of dollars spent in testing and developing it. This all assumes you can read, understand, and follow the instructions.
 

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-jimdrone ( A condition in the syndrome family known to baffle the bejeezus out of seekers of advice all over the internet, can be fatal if believed)
 

Eurob

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Something to ponder......

Laticrete's list unmodified for their waterproof membrane 'cause it can successfully pass the 50 psi test . There are many factors -- not in a lab setting -- which can influence the outcome of an installation which is composed of many ( hundreds ) many (thousands ) many (and much more ) samples which don't get submitted to such a test .


Drywall listing can only stand if there is no possibility for the water molecules to come in contact with it , which the waterproofing membrane -- sheet membrane -- can protect from . There are many other potential factors which can compromise the integrity of the drywall and make it a reliable substrate for a shower application .
 

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And, he knows this how? We've never met. FWIW, I actually know how to spell and punctuate things...a result of education and study.

If you want a little counterbalance....
Jim im confused...are you saying you do or have worked in the trades? hands on ....building showers and tiling for a paid living?

please do clarify your skillset for us again?

retired engineer gone know it all on a bunch of forums across the web perhaps?

.... i guess i did want a little LOL
 

Jadnashua

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As many have seen, one does not need to be a professional to produce a reliable result and there are a hell of a lot of people paid as a professional that don't have a clue, either, as shown by all of the failures people come here to ask about. There are many examples on this forum of first timer's making a quality product AND professionals (at least they were paid for their work) screwing things up royally. Someone who does not do this every day has a different perspective on things. Certain things a pro doesn't have to think twice about, a DIY'er has no clue, and on one job, may not want to try to learn the techniques, or have the tools, time, budget, or skill to accomplish. With that in mind, some of the advice some people on this site suggest can be more confusing and counterproductive than actual help. I have done more than one tiling project. I have made mistakes. I have learned a lot. I have been to more than one manufacturer's workshop and been introduced to their products and been guided on how to use them in the hand's on portions. Why more than one, because things change, and new products and revisions and improvements and tricks are learned - the manufacturer has a clue what works with their products and how best to use them. I have talked and observed thousands of questions asked and answered by pros on how to accomplish a particular task, what works, and what doesn't. That I don't work in the trade is not a reliable assessment of what I know, just as it is of so many of those so-called professionals that take money from people and produce a crappy result. Just listen to John and how he takes over a job supposedly started by a professional that is so wrong in so many ways and needs to be fixed. I push industry standards and manufacturers' instructions, since they have FAR more experience with their products than ANY one individual can ever posses. A field rep may visit 2-3 or more sites a day, a pro may do one job maybe a week, or it might take a few months. Throw in the many of them across a company, the corporate knowledge is HUGE. I believe them. I question an individual that feels what they say works, is 'crap', after hundreds of thousands or more installations. Companies that have been in business for decades, with hundreds of millions of dollars of sales per year do NOT stay in business promoting products or procedures that don't work. Saying that they don't seems quite misguided and arrogant to me.

IOW, doing something every day and being paid for it is no measure of it being done right, just as judging someone that is trying, studying, listening to pros, watching other people's issues and trying to help them make it right should be ignored. I will continue to point out what I consider discrepancies based on what the industry says works, especially those that have been doing it successfully for decades...maybe not for a newcomer.
 
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