66 to 50 Gallon Electric Water Heater Problem

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Dunbar Plumbing

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BUT, if there is a bad connection somewhere, you would not measure 240 at the load, because as soon as the element tried to draw current, voltage drop would occur at the bad spot.

It sounds like the electrician was careless at best, and probably just wanted to give them a bill and get out. After seeing the photo of the existing, we have perhaps been too harsh on our friend dunbar! I don't think any of us would want to try to bring that thing "back from the dead"!!!! It is just too bad the SOMEONE...Mr. D or the electrician.....did not find that the elements were actually heating and the water was just going away. We can all chock this one up to experience!


Decision was already made by the customer to replace when I heard "10 years." I also know the pressure is high in that subdivision... but didn't know if they had protection or not.

So I arrive with the heater, go upstairs and see the heater tore apart. Husband comes home about the same time, mentions he hears dripping in the half bath. I discount that because I just turned the water off, doing a drain down. He did mention that he heard that for the "past few days" and that to me would not be my first thinking of a slab leak, especially with the layout of this home. I'm calling it a toilet flush valve seal leaking because he said verbatim, "It sounds like it randomly is filling up."

But I cannot see the electrician trying to be a plumber, plumber being an electrician. It was not until the electrician had a 'properly installed water heater, new one' that he had something truly to work off of for reliability to point towards the connection, elements, thermostats on back to the panel to make a correct asessment.

IT appears that this whole job was a "cluster f***". Are you justifying the replacement of the heater by TRYING to find some reasong why it COULD fail shortly? I also charge "three figures" but I could have put that whole thing back together in an hour, or hour and a half at the most". IF the homeowner had not tried to "help out", then the leak would have been obvous before I did ANYTHING to the heater, other than test the electrical components, and would not have had to put it back together first. It is like what happens when a customer decides to take the toilet up so it will make my snaking job "easier", but I have to put it back to determine where the problem is and I do not snake through a toilet anyway. I do NOT tell customers to call an electrician because few of them know anything about repairing or testing water heaters. I do my OWN electrical testing and repairs. You appear to be "out of your element" when it comes to electric water heaters. Do I see an expansion tank installed "side arm" WITHOUT any support other than the copper line connecting it? And, the relief line should NOT be connected to the safety pan's drain line. as a sidebar, many plumbers would NOT consider it an "upgrade" to replace a Bradford-White with an AO Smith.


I love your responses hj because 90% of the time you mangle it to get a return response. It's your hobby.

But I'll give in, once again, line by line:


First sentence you got right.

2nd, knowing how many heaters I replace at 6 years on up, even 5 years, knowing high water pressure and a non-working thermal expansion tank on the second floor that can do serious damage if it goes... I made the right decision with forethought of good thinking. And even after all of this, I still wasn't given the opportunity to replace that PRV and get the core problem solved.

3rd, time on the phone back n' forth getting serial numbers, contacting the supply house, going to get the OEM parts to rebuild it, the painstaking talent of doing a complete drain down, replacement of all components electrical on a 10 year old water heater that has 100+ pounds of pressure against it, wiping out TXTs yearly?

I cannot guarantee that work to last. On a new water heater, the bedding of 6 year warranty, first year 100% covered, tank covered for 6 years from date of install is a pretty good deal against the draw comparison of repairing that tank with electrical components with ZERO warranty on the electric components or the life of that tank after the work is done.

Your next statement is spot on, and if I had the opportunity to 'start from the go' on this one, I would of troubleshooted and found the problem long before all the wheel spinning leading to my arrival. In regards to being 'out of my element' - I keep a simple tester that confirms 110/240 volts for my protection and I call it the dummy life saver. I want to make sure I won't get killed just in case there's an improperly marked breaker, or a crossover.

I'm not an electrician, I don't want to waste time servicing electric water heaters. These heaters are proprietary and when the homeowner starts messing with them, I have no prior vision of the wiring schematic, nothing. My job as a licensed professional plumber is to not be one who wears many hats and act like an electrician, my job is to be the pipe and fittings guy and save the electrical work for electricians. It's not my forte and it's like a tankless water heater. You'll never get me to sit and work on the myriad of wiring to find out what and why it isn't making hot water.

If it is a pipe leaking, busted fitting, that's what my master's license says I'm good at. ;)


You see how the old one was installed? That's why I switched the new one, and you missed that I corrected the location of the tee to be between the shutoff and the top of the heater, that way when the shutoff is closed, the TXT still protects the entire hot side of the potable water supply. If there is an easily accessible open ceiling above where I can strap to a joist, I will, and I never take pics of when I strap, always after. You'll see that green sticker on the heater where the inspectors 'passed' that side application without support of the tank.

Anything I did above and beyond to help on my end is a good move. You cannot see it, but that's an indirect tee with the top catching the T&P, the pan's 1" drain, into a 3" trap. Directly below this heater sits the 1/2 bath that the underground water lines were ran to, for no reason. It makes no sense those waters were put in the ground, it saved no money whatsoever.


WOW.


Now I see why people are afraid to come to this site and ask questions...


Have a Happy New Year All.


Not me! I love it. But I know where you're coming from. This was a tricky dicky situation and was worth posting because I rarely get stumped on service calls, and I wanted to share it with others to help them in case they get put in this position. If I really want to throw a hard punch at anyone, it's going to be the new construction plumber once again for using cheap parts, using them the wrong way and not protecting them underground. That's it in a nutshell and everyone else has to work at this problem by the direction of fix this, rule out that, move to the next.

My understanding was affected by the scenario of an electrician giving the 'all systems go' and the 10 year old heater getting slammed with high water pressure, ripped apart by the property owner and having the wrong parts installed. I really cannot get around that circumstance.

Not to stick up for the electrician but when he replaced the breaker he may have put an amprobe on the wires at the breaker, saw it was drawing current and called it good. I would not have expected him to wait an hour or more to see if it cycled off. Guess it never cycled due to the slab leak.

Just for the future, you do not have an amprobe but the house does have an electric meter. Have someone cycle the breaker while you watch the meter. If it slows when the breaker is off and speeds up whan on you can at least verify it's drawing some current.


I agree with that statement completely. He wouldn't or shouldn't stick around for a full cycle, same as I won't after a new installation or replacement... unless they want to pay me.

Him having a new water heater installed to code gave that electrician something to work off though for the final determination of what was going on... something I did not have.
 

Ballvalve

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I also charge "three figures"

Talk about a cluster F*** to the customer! So you guys get 3 figures per hour? My fricking doctor gets less, and he has to have a office, 3 nurses and a ton of equipment and insurance that makes your twiddle look like a joke.

When I get old and infirm and I get a bill from you jokers for 3 figures an hour, it will be my greatest joy to send you payment on $20 an hour [if you actually solved a problem and had the lightbulb in the head to turn down the music and make the old heater work] - other wise I'll send you payment of a shiny quarter pasted on a old used chrismas card.

And as I recall, dunbar was the guy who gleefully destroys american industry buying his cast trash pipe wrenches at harbor destruction.
You charge me 3 frickin bills an hour, you better have an American flag on your Ford truck, and every tool in that bag, bag included, better have a big made in USA sticker on it. Including the crap fittings you installed on my unneeded water heater.

I plan to live along time, just to avoid the stroke, or murder sentence from being fleeced by contractors that think they deserve to be paid such an obscene wage. Any plumber that thinks he deserves 3 figures and hour [unless its midnight and he's crawling in baby vomit and blood under a hospital crawl space] deserves a Rigid pipe wrench planted in the back of his hardened cro-magnum cranium.

Pardon my honesty, but it applies, especially in these hardest of times.

You remind me why I gave up on Subs years ago: I can hire a good capuchin humanish monkey for 8$ an hour, sit in a folding chair nearby, and get better results than the average Orangatang monkey plumber working on his own volition.

Terry and family excluded.
 
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BobL43

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Talk about a cluster F*** to the customer! So you guys get 3 figures per hour? My fricking doctor gets less, and he has to have a office, 3 nurses and a ton of equipment and insurance that makes your twiddle look like a joke. You remind me why I gave up on Subs years ago: I can hire a good capuchin humanish monkey for 8$ an hour, sit in a folding chair nearby, and get better results than the average Orangatang monkey plumber working on his own volition.Terry and family excluded.
Ballvalve, can that capuchin monkey make a good capucino for us too? They're cute, maybe not as cute as some of the lady barristas at St**B**ks, but maybe a little smarter and speak more clearly.Conversation getting a litle heavy, so I thought I'd lighten it up a bit.:)
 

DonL

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If I wanted something too look at I would go to Hooters®...
 

hj

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quote;; Now I see why people are afraid to come to this site and ask questions...

The secret is to ask the questions BEFORE you start changing things without testing them. What I said is the same thing I have told plumbers "face to face" when they do the same thing as this person. I had something similar yesterday. A "plumber" repaired an electric water heater, supposedly both thermstats and elements, but the fuses and/or circuit breaker would keep blowing periodically. When I tested it, the lower element was burned out, but was still heating using the water as a source for the neutral. This meant that;
1. One side NEVER turned off, but because it was only drawing 4 amps it took a long time to overheat, and
2. Eventually the circuit would trip because it was a partial short circuit through the other side of the element.
3. Water heaters do NOT need "OEM" parts. Everything is "generic" and the manufacturers buy ALL their components from the same company you can.
4. You are "rationalizing" your response to the problem.
 
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DonL

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Proper Tools for the job.

quote;; Now I see why people are afraid to come to this site and ask questions...

The secret is to ask the questions BEFORE you start changing things without testing them. What I said is the same thing I have told plumbers "face to face" when they do the same thing as this person. I had something similar yesterday. A "plumber" repaired an electric water heater, supposedly both thermstats and elements, but the fuses and/or circuit breaker would keep blowing periodically. When I tested it, the lower element was burned out, but was still heating using the water as a source for the neutral. This meant that;
1. One side NEVER turned off, but because it was only drawing 4 amps it took a long time to overheat, and
2. Eventually the circuit would trip because it was a partial short circuit through the other side of the element.
3. Water heaters do NOT need "OEM" parts. Everything is "generic" and the manufacturers buy ALL their components from the same company you can.
4. You are "rationalizing" your response to the problem.


I would think that anyone installing a Electrical device would/should have the proper tools to do it.

In this case a Clamp on Ammeter should have been on the truck and used to verify proper operation.
 

Pipehacker

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I know little about water heaters and less about electricity. I am, however, a rather frequent user of plumbers and electricians. My view on all of this is that the situation is not ideal or as expected, but that's life and sometimes things just are not going to be perfect. As a consumer, I would evaluate things on how much Dunbar charged to fix the things which perhaps should have been detected earlier but if he was reasonable on this my overall sense is that Dunbar is diligently trying to help the situation. And I wish I had Ballvalve's doctor. A routine ten minute get-the-antibiotic-for-the-kid's-earache pediatrician visit is $104.00 here.
 

hj

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quote; I can hire a good capuchin humanish monkey for 8$ an hour,

Now, you are getting the wrong person for $8.00 an hour. As I told the senior plumbing inspector one time, "If you could get a Chimpanzee to read a book and drive a car, you would have better inspectors than you do now. In fact the one who made out the customer's rejection slip must not have been able to read or write, because it was blank." I doubt that an "Orangutan" plumber could do my job, but I could be wrong since there is a company in this area with that name on its trucks, but I do not know who, or what, is driving them.
 

Ballvalve

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Orangutan's have really long arms, and are so strong they dont need wrenches. Good reach and nothing to leave on the job.

Also, no problem with plumbers crack, as they dont usually wear pants.

But for 3 bills, I want to see those hanging hooters and a proper plumbers crack.
 

Ballvalve

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You can charge 4 digits in this economy and get paid: $29.99. charge $129 and you get a long wait at the mailbox.

The only contractors I ever gave 3 digits per hour to were a pair of twin Unkrainian This post was totally inappropriate therefore it was deleted. . THAT"S value.
 
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hj

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quote; The only contractors I ever gave 3 digits per hour

In that case you may be working too cheaply. I give EVERYONE a "three digit, without a decimal point" rate quote, and have been doing it for a long time. The only ones I "wait for the mail" are established customers and even then it usually because they are not home when I finish the job.
 

Ballvalve

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I dont know how insulated you are from the latest economic reality, but 98% of working class americans dont have 3 digits for dinner, much less for a leak under a sink. I suppose you are lucky enough to be in a retirement area where older people never had pliers in their hands since birth.

I certainly admit that a hack plumber for 4 hours at 30 bucks is less value than a good one at one hour.


Sorry about the Ukranians, should have been in the plumbing forum.
 
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