Should I get a permit for a basement bathroom?

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Sorry for the X-post, but I wanted to get as many opinions as possible....


We are planning on haveing a full bath (stall shower, toilet and sink) installed in our basement.
The basement is already finished, we would just be adding the bathroom.
NOTE: This is not a DIY project. Work will be done by licensed plumbers, electricians, etc.

A friend of mine owns a landscaping design business and in the off-season does contracting on the side. He onws rental properties, flip houses. He uses licensed plumbers and elecltricians for all his work. I've seen his work; it's top shelf stuff.

Now, to the dilemma......

My friend says I should do the bathroom without getting a permit.
He says the permit process is a huge PITA for my town (he would know because he lives in my town too). Plus, he said my taxes would go up.

I asked him, "what if I go to sell, what to I do?"

He said claim ignorance. Tell the inspector/realtor, etc. that the contractor said he got all the permits. He said most folks won't even ask about permits if the work looks done good and right. It is when the work looks like a hack job is when people start to ask questions.
He said we would take pictures of all the work as we went along to show any inspector if the issue came up.
He said if I had to pay a fine at the time of sale, it would be less than the increase in taxes I would've paid.

So, what does everyone think?

If I was doing this myself, I would definitely get a permit. But since all the work will be done by licensed guys (and presumably up to code) why not take the bit of risk and skip the permits?

thanks for the input.
mm
 

NHmaster

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If everyone felt the same way your friend does, then why bother with permits, codes, building departments, inspectors, selectmen, zoning boards, police departments, fire departments, county government, state government federal government ........ OH MY GOD IT"S TOTAL ANARCHY :D
 

Tyman 2

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Demand a permit be pulled. The contractors have nothing to be afraid of if the work they do is to code.

Honor your gut feeling.
 

Cass

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You can have the contractor pull the permit and have your taxes go up a little and know all is OK

or don't have him pull it and maybe have a nightmare on your hands...it is up to you...

If you sell the house and someone checks the permits pulled and there is none for that bathroom you will have an even bigger problem on your hands...
 

Jadnashua

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A pro isn't afraid of permits and inspectors. But, it does cost more to perform the job, not only to pull the permit, but for the likely extra time it will take, and someone who does it right will likely cost more in labor for that. The reason is, depending on the job, you can only go so far before you have to get bits inspected. This can slow the job down depending on the size of the job if they can't go on to other things while waiting for the inspector to come. It really depends somewhat on the size of the building department and the number of inspectors, and how much activity there is in the town. An inspector could force you to tear out the existing job, fine you, and then you'd get to redo the whole thing at your cost. Now, if they'd accept in-progress pictures is totally up to him. You're just asking for problems...if you have a neighbor that has a gripe, they could call the building department, and the fines could start the day after you started. Could happen any time after, too.
 

Scuba_Dave

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Yeah, guy on another forum (or maybe this one?) didn't have a permit pulled
He's now having multiple problems with drains
The Permit & Inspection process is there to make sure that things are done right
 
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Agu

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Your friend is an idiot.


Any licensed and insured professional who is willing to work without a permit is also an idiot. I would have to question their abilities and ethics, and they certainly aren't going to be working in my home. I don't do business with people who have questionable ethics.
 

Chris8796

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I don't think I would put much faith in the professionalism of "licensed guys", when they offer to violate their license and codes before the job is started.

When I see large projects that were unpermitted, the first thing I think is "cheapskate". Not exactly the first impression you want to give to a potential buyer. If he was willing to cut corners here, were else is he cutting corners? Even if I was comfortable with the work and the rest of the house, I would use it as leverage in any negotiations.
 
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well, we've decided to go with our gut (and the advice here on this board) and get the permits.

My friend (the GC) has no problems with doing that. And he understands my reasons for doing so.
Being a small business owner, he's just on a bit of an anti-government rant lately, and sees the permit process as a government revenue grab.....he's a good guy, definitely not an idiot.
He and all of the subs (plumber, electrician) are licensed and have no problem going the permit route.

url

Homes on Homes.

Funny note though........
My wife and I were watching HTV the other night. Watching the show "Holmes on Homes."
Holmes is a contractor that goes around helping people out that get screwed over by shady contractors.
He was helping a couple who basically had their whole house torn apart to be remodeled. Well, the contractor did some really really crappy work......all sorts of construction, plumbing and electrical code violations......and ALL of it (according to the show) had been approved by inspectors.
"Holmes on Homes" ended up bascially ripping everything out and started from scratch....

With this permit debate issue in mind, my wife and I had a bit of a laugh when we saw that.

thanks.
mm
 
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gluecan

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one more thing to think of is your insurance if u do not get a permit your ins co can deny all claimes on your policy. it just happen in town a guy had his house reroofed and the next day had a fire an his ins.co said to bad u did not strip it when u reroofed it. under mn law u have to strip all roofs.the roof had nothing to do with the fire get a permit be safe
 

Iminaquagmire

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While I'm sure the roof most likely didn't cause the fire, it could certainly contribute to its damages. Two layers of roofing will just hold the roof together more and keep a fire from self-venting. It will cause heat to build up more if the fire can't vent. It would also slow down any truck company sent to the roof do perform ventilation. I'm not saying its right to deny a claim in this instance, but I can see where the insurance company would get that policy.

As for the original question, anytime contractors are involved, I'd pull the permit. Myself I feel confident enough in my work for it not to be questioned at time of sale. Any buyer can get it inspected if they want.
 

Questioner

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Permits

I have always wondered - exactly how can they "make" you tear stuff out? What legal jurisdiction to they have to do that? Live in Massachusetts, if that helps.
 

Scuba_Dave

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Inspectors have the right to inspect any renovations & upgrades
Near a friends house the owner gutted & redid the bathroom
A neighbor turned him in
Did not meet code - they made him rip it out & have a plumber do it right
He also paid fines & penalties
I'm not sure of the specifics but you are required to get a permit & have inspections
Failure to do so & you have violated the law
 

hj

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power

They can make you tear it out using the same power that they had if they had inspected it and approved it. I had a customer back in Chicago. He was a refugee from Poland, and had purchased a storefront building to open a shop. He built onto the front of the store, without a permit, and when the city found out about it, decided that it did not meet code as far as setback was concerned. He had to tear it off, and go back to the original building. I have also seen garages that were constructed too close to a property line, and unless they could get the neighbors to sign off that it was not a distraction had to tear them down, or move them. Codes are very specific about what you can and cannot do, so if you violate them, the municipalities have vast discretion as to how to deal with the violator. Usually it has to do with the customer's attitude first, and what was done second.
 

Cass

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I had a customer that when they went to sell the house they had the land surveyed and found out the neighbor owned a corner of their living room...
 

Scuba_Dave

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Yeah my last house the prior owner had to buy a slice of land from the neighbor
Part of the kitchen was on the neighbor's property

Also another guy decided to build a house in the middle of the woods
He figured there wouldn't be a problem out in the middle of the woods
But he built in an area deemed to be wetlands when the Town found out & inspected the site.
He was fined, given a limited amount of time to move it or tear it down
Every day past that was a daily fine

I had this house's property inspected by the Conservation Committee before we even bought it
I wanted to make sure I could build a garage on one side - located near a stream
 
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Questioner

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I remodeled my kitchen. According to my contractor, because we were pretty much just maintaining and bringing up to code (it's an old house - we actually tore out much old, BAD work) we didn't need a permit. So, didn't get one. My upstairs condomate, who was mad at me because he didn't like the fact that I didn't ask him about this project (which I didn't have to) went to the building department and I therefore was blocked from getting my gas permit, which I was trying to pull for the stove. So, I had to pull a building permit, and they went ahead and inspected and signed off on gas, but now they are after me for the plumbing and electrical, which of course was already done and covered.

So, this is kind of a gray area - not something really cut and dried like some of the above examples, I mean not like I needed occupancy permits, or if it was new construction. This is why I was asking. I can get the electrical permit easily enough, but the plumbing is a problem because the contractor did it and I don't think he is actually licensed to do so - although I'm assured it's above and beyond the code. It looks to me like a paperwork problem, because I don't care if they come and look, frankly I want this over with, but I have no one to pull the permit.
 

Inspektor Ludwig

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You'll be glad you got the permits. It always comes back to bite you in the end. There's a little paper called "Form 17" that you need fill out when you try to sell your house. That's where you'll get caught if you don't have the permits. I'm dealing with a few of those situations right now. Bad contractors, bad plumbing and no recourse for the homeowner since the guys are long gone. Kudos for going with your gut.
 
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