Want to switch from a cycle stop valve to a tank, need help

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KCunningham

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I do my own plumbing and I’m not great at it..appreciate all help and patience in advance.

I have a goulds j10s with a cycle stop valve. It drives me nuts because it’s always switching on. I think I need a regular pressure tank? What do I need to do to get this CSV gone?
 

Reach4

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Unscrew it and connect the line to the new big pressure tank. A "tank tee" at the tank gives a good place to mount the pressure switch, pressure gauge, and more.

You may want to use the CSV with a bigger tank, in which case you would adjust the CSV to regulate at a higher pressure to give may be 2 minutes of runtime after the pump kicks on. Once the tank fills, the pump will not kick on until the water pressure drops to the cut-on pressure.

I would use a 44 gallon tank or bigger. Those have 1-1/4 inch inputs. The tank tees usually have both 1 inch female and 1-1/4 inch male connections (concentric).

With a jet pump and a 40/60 switch, you would set the air precharge to about 35 psi. I did not check the curves on your pump to see if that pump was a good match to a 40/60 pressure switch.

Is your jet pump drawing from a sand point or a 2 inch ID casing, or do you have something bigger?
 
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Valveman

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Again the CSV is not the problem. Use whatever size tank you want. Because you have a CSV you have the luxury of being able to use any size tank you want and are able to install it anywhere you want in the entire plumbing system.
 

Reach4

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He could even bypass the CSV with a valve, to allow experiments.
 

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I do my own plumbing and I’m not great at it..appreciate all help and patience in advance.

I have a goulds j10s with a cycle stop valve. It drives me nuts because it’s always switching on. I think I need a regular pressure tank? What do I need to do to get this CSV gone?
Since you don't say the pump is not lasting very long or the pressure in the house is low, I assume the problem is that you can hear the pump? If the pump is "always switching on" when you are not using any water, you have a leak somewhere that needs to be fixed. If the pump is only switching on when you use water it is working correctly. But if when it switches on the motor noise bothers you, it is because of a noisy pump, not the CSV. The pump will be noisy with or without the CSV.

With a small tank the pump will be noisy often, but for short periods of time. With a large pressure tank the pump will not be noisy as often, but will be noisy for longer periods of time while the large tank is filling.

If the pump was in a pump house or away from the main house, you would have strong constant pressure from the CSV and never know if the pump was on or not. If you have a cistern you can use a submersible, which is as quiet as you can get. There are also water cooled pump motors that don't have the noisy fan. But the water filled motors are expensive, give problems, and don't last very long.

Even though there is nothing wrong with it and the CSV is making your pump last longer and deliver strong constant pressure to your house, you can return it for a full refund even if it is just because you don't like it. Of course you will be the first in 30 years to not be able to see the benefits of a CSV and return it. So, maybe you should look for a way to make the pump more quite instead of blaming the CSV for something it didn't do?
 

Banjo Bud

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I am familiar with what you’re saying KC. There are trade offs with a CSV and with a small tank (I have a 2 gallon) the pumps runs every time I use a gallon of water. With a big tank, the pump won’t run as often but the pressure will drop for a longer time.
 

KCunningham

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Since you don't say the pump is not lasting very long or the pressure in the house is low, I assume the problem is that you can hear the pump? If the pump is "always switching on" when you are not using any water, you have a leak somewhere that needs to be fixed. If the pump is only switching on when you use water it is working correctly. But if when it switches on the motor noise bothers you, it is because of a noisy pump, not the CSV. The pump will be noisy with or without the CSV.

With a small tank the pump will be noisy often, but for short periods of time. With a large pressure tank the pump will not be noisy as often, but will be noisy for longer periods of time while the large tank is filling.

If the pump was in a pump house or away from the main house, you would have strong constant pressure from the CSV and never know if the pump was on or not. If you have a cistern you can use a submersible, which is as quiet as you can get. There are also water cooled pump motors that don't have the noisy fan. But the water filled motors are expensive, give problems, and don't last very long.

Even though there is nothing wrong with it and the CSV is making your pump last longer and deliver strong constant pressure to your house, you can return it for a full refund even if it is just because you don't like it. Of course you will be the first in 30 years to not be able to see the benefits of a CSV and return it. So, maybe you should look for a way to make the pump more quite instead of blaming the CSV for something it didn't do?

Sorry for not explaining better and probably misunderstanding..
The pump runs every time I flush or wash my hands etc and it’s loud but I also worry that by having it run so often that the pump will burn out and fail early. Is my thinking wrong here? I have no other problem with the CSV
 

Valveman

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Like I said, the pump being noisy is the problem, not the CSV. With a larger tank the pump won't be noisy as often, but will be noisy for a longer period of time when it does come on. The pressure will also be lower for longer periods of time waiting on the big tank to drain and the pump to start.

With the smaller tank the pump will be noisy often, but won't be noisy for very long because it doesn't take long to fill the small tank. But every time you hear the noise you also have strong constant pressure.

I am sorry you can hear the pump. But it is not hurting the pump unless it is cycling hundreds of times per day. The small tank is actually making your pressure stronger. I wish you had a well house or pit so you couldn't hear that fan cooled motor running. Maybe you can make an insulated and vented box to put the pump in and make it more quite?
 

wwhitney

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The standard size, looks like a 3 gallon to me
That gives, what, 1 gallon of water going from 60 to 40 psi? (A guess) If so, it shouldn't turn on literally every time you wash your hands, as if it's at full pressure a draw of 1 gallon should be required to turn it on.

So if you were being literal instead of figurative, perhaps there's something wrong with the pressure switch or other configuration (not my area of familiarity).

Cheers, Wayne
 

Reach4

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Drawdown is typically more like 25% than 33%. The theoretical/published number does not take everything into account.

People wash their hands different ways. I think most people don't close the stopper. Some turn off the water to rub lather, and some run continuously. Also, some people have less restrictive aerators.

Submersible pumps are much quieter.
 

LLigetfa

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Submersible pumps are much quieter.
I deliberately strapped the incoming pipe to the floor joists so I can hear when the pump runs but then I have a micronizer that makes enough noise so probably did not have to strap the pipe. Ignorance is not bliss.

I have two HP tanks so under normal use, the pump only runs about a dozen times a day. If the tanks are full at the start, I can take a shower with just the drawdown. It takes 3 minutes for the pump to fill the tanks when there is no draw but then my fill rate is limited to around 5 GPM by my micronizer.

The OP could keep the CSV and simply add a second tank if he wants more drawdown. In my case, I added the second tank not so much for drawdown but rather for more contact time for my iron filter.
 

Bannerman

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There are trade offs with a CSV and with a small tank (I have a 2 gallon) the pumps runs every time I use a gallon of water.
Your 2-gallon tank will have only about 0.5 gallons drawdown. Since a toilet will typically require more than 1/2 gallon per flush, it stands to reason the pump will become activated for every flush. The usual recommended pressure tank size for use with a CSV for a single family residence is either 4.4 or 10 gallons which will provide ~1 gallon or ~2.5 gallons drawdown respectively.
The standard size, looks like a 3 gallon to me
If the tank was supplied with Cycle Stop Valve's PK1A kit, the tank is most likely 4.4 gallons which should be resulting in about 1 gallon drawdown.

Have you tested the pressure tank air precharge pressure? If your pressure switch is calibrated for 40/60 psi, then the pressure tank pre-charge should be 38 psi or slightly lower. While the tank pre-charge will usually be pre-calibrated correctly at the factory for the pressure switch setting, if you have since readjusted the pressure switch, then the tank pre-charge maybe incorrect and the tank maybe delivering less than the intended drawdown quantity.

As Valveman said, a larger tank will result in the pump becoming activated less often, but once activated, the pump will need to operate for longer to fill the larger tank once water usage is no longer needed.

As stated, if the pump is becoming activated when there is no water use, then there is a leak in the system.
 

KCunningham

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Thanks for all the feedback. Very helpful to know this isn’t unusual. Sounds like maybe I need a submersible pump rather than an indoor one ultimately. I’m guessing the big part of that job is running the power to it considering the well is 100Ish feet from the house
 

Reach4

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Thanks for all the feedback. Very helpful to know this isn’t unusual. Sounds like maybe I need a submersible pump rather than an indoor one ultimately. I’m guessing the big part of that job is running the power to it considering the well is 100Ish feet from the house

for a submersible, your casing needs to be 4 inch or even 3 inch if PVC. Also, to replace a 1 HP jet pump, a 1/2 HP submersible would normally be a good match. In pump shopping, don't just look at HP, but also the GPM rating. Lower gpm pumps cost more because they have more stages to develop more pressure. So if it doesn't really say what the GPM rating is, that is probably not the pump for you.

If you don't have a pitless, then you would want the casing extended above ground, and a pitless adapter installed.

If this is a 2-pipe deep jet pump, you can use one pipe as a conduit for the new wires. If the existing pipes are 1-1/4 steel, you may be able to feed 3/4 SIDR poly pipe thru there. Provides like 7 to 10 gpm.

Wire depth needed -- 2 ft should be good, but there may be conditions where shallower would be fine.
 

Valveman

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Like was said a submersible is so quite you have to wire it to a light bulb or something if you want to know when it is running. Moving the jet pump out to a well house is another option. But any pump installed in the house can be noisy, especially if the pump room is on your side of the house. :)
 
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