What's best for the pump

Users who are viewing this thread

Fishyone

New Member
Messages
28
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Location
northern calif.
As the heading suggests is it better to have a longer run time and shorter idle time, or a longer idle time and a shorter run time.
I've heard that the pump needs a two minute run before shutting off. I have an irrigation system that by adding or substracting sprinkler lines (at the valves) i can make it go either way 2 minutes run/11/2 min. idle or 11/2 run and 21/4 min idle. is it ok to just run the pump for two minutes before it starts its cycle? I have a flow inducer on the pump, its a 2hp 18gpm
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,796
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Longer run or continuous is best.

Are you asking about running zone 1 for 2 minutes, and switching both zone 1 and 2 simultaneously for a second and then switching to zone 2?

What you don't want is on for 2 minutes, off for a minute, on for 2 minutes, etch.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
BEST for the pump would be to keep it running continuously 24/7, but when you don't require water continuously, then you will want the longest run time possible. The two minutes you mention, is the preferred minimum run time.

One method to prevent cycling would be to always match water use to the pump's GPM ooutput. If for example the pump can deliver 15 GPM, then running sufficient sprinkler heads to equal 15 GPM, the system pressure will not rise to the pressure switch shutoff pressure and so the pump will run continuously until less water is utilized.

Another method to prevent pump cycling is to utilize a Cycle Stop Valve. A CSV will reduce the flow rate from the pump so it will always match the rate of consumption when consumption is less than the pump's GPM delivery rate while at the same time, delivering constant pressure.

For instance, if using a system utilizing a 40/60 psi pressure switch, if only 3 GPM is needed to supply a shower, then the CSV will only permit the 15 GPM pump to deliver 3 GPM at 50 psi. If the rate of consumption suddenly increases to 9 GPM, then the CSV will rapidly permit 9 GPM from the pump while maintaining 50 psi to the shower and other fixtures.

Once no further water is needed, the CSV will then to fill the pressure tank @ 1 GPM until the system pressure rises to 60 psi whereby the pump will be shut down by the pressure switch.

For a visual explanation, see video demonstration below.

 

Fishyone

New Member
Messages
28
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Location
northern calif.
I watched the csv video and have a question.
As stated on the other post i made "max pressure my pump creates" I have a large 80 gal. pressure tank that allows approx. 20gal. drawdown before the pump cycles on. I want to keep that tank so the household water does not cycle and run everytime i turn a faucet on and for the ease of not having to replumb the system instead just adding a csv at the well head.
the video says that the tank will empty then the pump will come on. the pump will build up to just below the cut off pressure and to my understanding all the water will go towards what ever is running and no water will start to rebuild the tank. Which means that when the faucet (or whatever) is shut off the tank will start to rebuild at 1gpm. So the pump is going to continue to run for 20+ mins while the tank fills up? I would hope that if i have a30/50 pressure switch and the csv is set at 48psi that the tank would fill to the 48 psi while the water is running then when the water is stopped the tank would fill the rest of the way at 1gpm to get to the 50psi where the switch would shut off. Maybe a couple of gals. not 20 . maybe when the water is shut off the tank fills quickly to the 48psi then starts its slow fill at 1gpm until it reaches 50psi?

Please understand i am not being argumentative rather trying to find what is best in my case
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Yes it will only take 2 minutes for the CSV to fill the tank from 48 to 50. That is why you set the CSV at 48. The big tank is not only a waste of money and space, but will keep you from seeing the strong constant pressure on any use less than 20 gallons. I have an entire web page dedicated to explaining this and yet 30 year later people still waste their money on a big tank. Some even call me later an complain that they don't have the strong constant pressure I promise. No you don't! Because you have a big tank. You have to use that entire 20 gallon as the pressure drops from 50 all the way to 30 for the first 7 minutes of a 3 GPM shower. Then a minute later you finally start to see strong constant 48 PSI when the CSV is finally allowed to work.

Of course the pump kicks on every time you use more than 1 gallon of water when you only have a 4.5 gallon size tank. But when that pump comes on the CSV immediately gives you strong constant 40 PSI (in your case, 50 in most) to use for as long as any faucet is open. The destructive cycles on a pump do not come from small intermittent uses like flushing and washing machines. It comes from the long term uses like showers and sprinklers. Since the CSV takes out ALL cycling for ANY long term use of water, cycling for any intermittent use over 1 gallon will NEVER hurt the pump. YOU CANNOT FLUSH A TOILET ENOUGH TO HURT A PUMP! But just let the kids leave one hose running in the back yard for a night or two, and if you don't have a CSV you will need a new pump.
 

wwhitney

In the Trades
Messages
6,532
Reaction score
1,822
Points
113
Location
Berkeley, CA
Going back to the OP, say you have an application where you need 60 gallons of water every 15 minutes. Obviously the best solution is to arrange the application to just use 4 gpm and keep the pump running continuously.

Suppose, for whatever reason, you can't do that. But you can configure it to either take 6 gpm for 10 minutes, with a 5 minute break; or 12 gpm for 5 minutes, with a 10 minute break. And suppose your pump can accommodate either of those.

In that case, is one configuration better for the pump than the other, or does it just not matter much, as either way the pump is starting 4 times an hour?

Cheers, Wayne
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Going back to the OP, say you have an application where you need 60 gallons of water every 15 minutes. Obviously the best solution is to arrange the application to just use 4 gpm and keep the pump running continuously.

Suppose, for whatever reason, you can't do that. But you can configure it to either take 6 gpm for 10 minutes, with a 5 minute break; or 12 gpm for 5 minutes, with a 10 minute break. And suppose your pump can accommodate either of those.

In that case, is one configuration better for the pump than the other, or does it just not matter much, as either way the pump is starting 4 times an hour?

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks Wayne! I've tried dozens of ways to explain it in the last 30 years and still haven't found a good one apparently. With the old pressure tank only method you did have to worry about how you were using water. You needed to make every long term use of water large enough to keep the pump from cycling off. You needed a large enough tank to handle the short term uses of water. The more short term uses, the larger the tank should be. However, for the last 30 years adding a Cycle Stop Valve to any size pressure tank keeps you from having to worry about how or when you use water. The CSV will take care of the pump during long term and short term uses of water, even with a small tank. Just use water any way you want with a CSV. And since that is true no matter what size tank you use, anything larger than the CSV recommended size tank is a waste of money, space, and pressure.

Sorry to be getting old and testy. But I was a young man when I started explaining this. If you have read any of the hundreds of pages in my web page you will have seen 30 years of proof and testimonials showing that large pressure tanks are not needed.
 

wwhitney

In the Trades
Messages
6,532
Reaction score
1,822
Points
113
Location
Berkeley, CA
Thanks Wayne! I've tried dozens of ways to explain it in the last 30 years and still haven't found a good one apparently.
Oh, I understand what you've been saying about using a pump with a CSV. But the OP's question, and my reformulation of it, is about using a pump without a CSV.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Oh, I understand what you've been saying about using a pump with a CSV. But the OP's question, and my reformulation of it, is about using a pump without a CSV.

Cheers, Wayne
The point is that without a Cycle Stop Valve you have to plan and use water in ways that doesn't cause cycling. With a Cycle Stop Valve you don't have to worry about how much or how long you use water as there is no flow rate or amount of time you can run water that will cause enough cycling to hurt the pump.
 

Fishyone

New Member
Messages
28
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Location
northern calif.
I've read all the answers from this post and my other post " max pressure create by my pump "
The one answer that makes the most sense is to me is " two minutes is a nice number, but 50 seconds is not terrible"
that answer would fall in line with the manufacturer statement of 1 to 2 minutes run time is ok.
Irrigation: In my case I can control the irrigation cycling by running more sprinklers or drip lines at a time. Some lines i can make run 10mins and others run forever at 45pds. By the way what is a good off time while the tank is draining before the pump cycles on again? I have a flow inducer on the pump so i would think that would help with heat build up.
Household water: This is where the pump ( may cycle more. ) I live in a two person household where most water is kept to a minimum in my opinion. Showers are not extra long, And having rural property i have my favorite tree to use during the day.( if you get my drift) I have no leaks in the household or in the irrigation system. So if the pump cycles a few more times during household use, the run time would be with in the manufacturers recommendation. I also have a large pressure tank where the pump would not cycle every time the toilet flushes or i wash my hands. my understanding is with the csv i would get a cycle every time i use a gallon
I think for now a csv would not be needed. I like having the large tank especially during power outages where i have a buffer even if its not the full 20gals in the tank. I like not worrying about the back pressure on the drop pipe in case something goes south.
Let me state that for alot of years I never gave cycling a second though, until last year when the static dropped 50ft. and my pump would not get pass 30psi. the pump after 22yrs. was trying its best. had a new deeper well drilled and new pump placed at 240'. So ever since then myself and others have been sensitive to all things water. This being the third year of drought in this part of northern calif. water is still on everyone's mind
 

LLigetfa

DIYer, not in the trades
Messages
7,497
Reaction score
575
Points
113
Location
NW Ontario, Canada
By the way what is a good off time while the tank is draining before the pump cycles on again?
Off time is not needed if the on time is long enough to overcome the heat the start windings generated. As was mentioned, pumps can run 100% duty cycle.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I've read all the answers from this post and my other post " max pressure create by my pump "
The one answer that makes the most sense is to me is " two minutes is a nice number, but 50 seconds is not terrible"
that answer would fall in line with the manufacturer statement of 1 to 2 minutes run time is ok.
Irrigation: In my case I can control the irrigation cycling by running more sprinklers or drip lines at a time. Some lines i can make run 10mins and others run forever at 45pds. By the way what is a good off time while the tank is draining before the pump cycles on again? I have a flow inducer on the pump so i would think that would help with heat build up.
Household water: This is where the pump ( may cycle more. ) I live in a two person household where most water is kept to a minimum in my opinion. Showers are not extra long, And having rural property i have my favorite tree to use during the day.( if you get my drift) I have no leaks in the household or in the irrigation system. So if the pump cycles a few more times during household use, the run time would be with in the manufacturers recommendation. I also have a large pressure tank where the pump would not cycle every time the toilet flushes or i wash my hands. my understanding is with the csv i would get a cycle every time i use a gallon
I think for now a csv would not be needed. I like having the large tank especially during power outages where i have a buffer even if its not the full 20gals in the tank. I like not worrying about the back pressure on the drop pipe in case something goes south.
Let me state that for alot of years I never gave cycling a second though, until last year when the static dropped 50ft. and my pump would not get pass 30psi. the pump after 22yrs. was trying its best. had a new deeper well drilled and new pump placed at 240'. So ever since then myself and others have been sensitive to all things water. This being the third year of drought in this part of northern calif. water is still on everyone's mind
What makes "the most sense to you" is not what is best for the pump, which is the title of this thread. What is best for the pump is to run 24/7/365. I have a pump that hasn't turned off since the year 2000 when I put it in. Motor manufacturers state one minute run time is mandatory, two minutes is better, and running continuously 24/7/365 is best for the pump. The same goes for off time. One minute off is barely enough for the motor to cool down. Two minutes is better, and never shutting off is best.

Something is much more "likely to go south" without the back pressure from a CSV. We have already figured your pump will only do 190 PSI max, which is only 160 PSI at the surface and well within the parameters of the pipe. Back pressure is good for the motor as it makes it draw lower amps, run cooler, and is what reduces the pump flow so it doesn't cycle on/off.

Most people don't give cycling a second thought until they realize that is why they have been having to purchase new pumps so often, or they just get tired of the pressure going up and down all the time. Most people don't know to adjust there sprinkler system so it keeps the pump running constantly. Many just have hose irrigation that makes it impossible to run enough water to keep the pump from cycling on and off. Cycle Stop Valves are just as good for these people as they are for those who just want to run their irrigation anyway they want and not have to worry about cycling.

You already have the big tank. If you are lucky enough to have a gallon or two in there when the power goes off I am happy for you. But that is not usually the case. Adding a CSV to your existing tank would keep the pump from cycling when using any more than the 20 gallons in the tank. The 20 gallons in the tank will give you that warm and fuzzy feeling not having to worry about the pump cycling for toilet flushes.

THE COMBINATION OF THE BIG TANK AND A CYCLE STOP VALVE WOULD ABSOLUTELY BE THE BEST THING FOR THE PUMP!

But like thousands of other CSV customers in the last 30 years, you will soon see the big tank is not only a waste of space and money, but is hindering you from getting that strong constant pressure you will come to notice and love every time the CSV is working.

If you haven't tried a Cycle Stop Valve you will never know what you are missing. If you try a Cycle Stop Valve and don't like the strong constant pressure and the greatly reduced cycling, you can send it back for a full refund. I have never got one back in 30 years. You can be the first.

Manufacturers will tell you 1 to 2 minutes is fine because they like to sell you a replacement pump in the not too distant future. They will also tell you a little 2.2 gallon tank is all you need, and their variable speed pump systems are efficient. I don't know why people let the fox guard the hen house? I give them an easy and 30 year proven way to make pumps last longer, have stronger pressure, save money on tanks, and they still listen to the fox instead.
 

Fishyone

New Member
Messages
28
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Location
northern calif.
Vavleman its ok to have a discussion and not buy one of your valves. Really its ok, just chill out and realize not everyone feels the way you do for whatever reason. You don't have to defend every conversation that has the word csv in it. I think you should defend your product, but please don't put those of us who would like to do without a csv in the category of foolish. So far i have lived with wells and pumps for 50+ years and have not needed a csv.
by the way not all of Calif. is fruits and nuts. As a matter of fact most have headed out to Texas, Lubbock I believe. Your welcome
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Vavleman its ok to have a discussion and not buy one of your valves. Really its ok, just chill out and realize not everyone feels the way you do for whatever reason. You don't have to defend every conversation that has the word csv in it. I think you should defend your product, but please don't put those of us who would like to do without a csv in the category of foolish. So far i have lived with wells and pumps for 50+ years and have not needed a csv.
by the way not all of Calif. is fruits and nuts. As a matter of fact most have headed out to Texas, Lubbock I believe. Your welcome
I have had to defend it for 30 years. At that time the CSV was blacklisted by the major pump companies as a disruptive product as it makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. It was deemed such a perfect pump control employees were threatened with termination for just mentioning it. If you don't understand the CSV is the best thing for your pump and every system should have one I just haven't explained it properly.
 

Fishyone

New Member
Messages
28
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Location
northern calif.
You have explained it properly and no-one said it wasn't a good product. I was just saying that for now i'm going to try and do without the csv. (remain old school} is a way to look at it. I would hope that in the future you would welcome my business if i decide to get up to speed and go for that new fangled contraption. and that could be as soon as next week if i get tired of messing with the worry over this damn pump.
As a side note, I have spoken to members of your staff in the past, they seen knowledgeable and seen like good folks.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,599
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Thanks, but with all the facts available if you are not 110% convinced the CSV is "What's best for the pump", then I don't think I have explained it properly. There is no reason to express incorrect opinions about back pressure, small tanks, and pump run times when all the facts are available. If people were not having problems with their water system they wouldn't be a market for Cycle Stop Valves to start with.

The Cycle Stop Valve doesn't have any negative draw backs and solves most pump system problems. So, yes when you realize the problems of the "old school" pressure tank only system, which are all caused by cycling, we will be here to help you out. Like I said, I have been fighting the incorrect assumptions and opinions on this subject for 30 years, as this is Cycle Stop Valves' 30 year anniversary. While I am getting old and won't be here another 30 years, my son, who is most likely the member of our staff you talked to, will hopefully still be here to help you. My granddaughter will hopefully follow him. I just have to instill in them the same tenacity I have. So, when they know they are right they...........

stork and frog.jpg
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks