Help with a 1hp jet pump cycling on a shallow well

[Stackz]

so I'm trying to get the well pump up and running so I can overseed and water to present the house for sale.

it used to have a super old myers 1909 pump and did work until the motor finally went out. anyway, I bought two ebay chinese jet pumps (one for each house) and went to hook the one for this house up finally. got it primed and pumping but it short cycles...really really really rapidly when the spigot is turned off that I just unplugged it as it will likely burn up from all the cycling.

there is no tank on the pump as I'm trying to get it running as cheaply as possible just for getting the yard looking green for selling purposes.

here's how I have it setup right now (ignore that the pump housing is separated, while I was getting the wiring sorted I pulled it off and apparently the o-ring slipped and got cut...so I need to go to grainger to get a new one...you can see it to the right of the pump in the pic sigh):

I'm assuming I need a small tank for this thing? would one like either of these work?
https://www.amazon.com/WaterWorker-...d=1&keywords=well+tank&qid=1620127587&sr=8-11

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303854619835

if so, how would I plumb it? I guess remove the spigot and then put a T in and toss the tank on the T? and then put the spigot on the opposite side of the T? do I need anything else? do I need to move the pressure gauge and switch to past the tank and not on the pump housing?

I was reading online and heard about stop cycle valves? they look pretty expensive and would like to not have one if possible since I wont care once the house is sold in a month or so.

my main house has one of these pumps which feeds an old style 40gallon tank (tank has an inlet and outlet and a side port where I tossed my pressure switch and gauge). these newer tanks where they literally have a single port on them and you put the big ole weirdo looking tank tee kind of confuse me based off of what I know from the older setups. this would literally be the first one I would be setting up like this.

ALSO! this chinese pump is a JSW-10M pump but I cant find the pump housing o-ring to save my life which is why I'm hoping my local grainger will have one that will work. if anyone knows where I can get one that would be great!
here's the pump I'm talking about:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/313290041828?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=50cabd784e634a3991bd571ce20db58b&pid=100675&rk=5&rkt=15&mehot=none&sd=154384506788&itm=313290041828&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:53b441fe-accc-11eb-9c11-ba10c213e08f|parentrq:372618e51790ab8cd7dd1569fff8f33e|iid:1

it literally looks like a knockoff of this one at lowes but unfortunately lowes doesnt sell service parts for their pumps...just pumps.

if I could find a seal online like on amazon I'll just add that to my cart instead of driving 30 miles to grainger lol

 

[Valveman]

Don't know where to get an o-ring like that. Good luck with that! But when you get the pump working you will either need to run it manually, with no pressure switch, or you will need to add a pressure tank. With a 17 GPM pump you will need at least a 60+ gallon size pressure tank that holds about 17 gallons. Pumps need to run a minimum of 1 minute, 2 minutes would be better, and never turning off when using water is best. After you price a couple of those tanks you will find that the CSV is not expensive. With a CSV you can use a little 4.5 gallon size tank as the CSV will keep the pump from cycling while you are using water. Without a CSV the larger the pressure tank the fewer times the pump cycles, but it still cycles on and off repeatedly while you are using water. With a CSV the pump does not cycle, so you can use a smaller and less expensive tank. The complete PK1A kit comes with the tank, switch, gauge, relief valve, etc., as well as the CSV1A Cycle Stop Valve for $395.00. And there is no comparison as to how the CSV works up next to a regular old style pressure switch/pressure tank only system.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Stackz]

hmm wish I would have seen this reply while I was out lol. some reason I didnt get any email notification.

anyway, I went out because I remembered we have a true value on the island and figured if anywhere had the 0-ring aside from grainger, it would be them. sure enough, $5.99 they had an o-ring that fit a goulds pump housing that was the same size I needed. they also had a goulds pump on display with a 2 gallon tank attached and it was only $39 so I grabbed it to give it a quick try.

I'm literally only using this pump to water the front and back yard so as long as it physically turns off and doesnt cycle like someone is playing spoons (which is what it was doing without a tank at all lol) I will be good. once the house sells, I will let someone else deal with it. Will keep reading on csv to see if I need one, I'm just hoping this works as a bandaid for a month or two.

if the pressure switch is 20/40 then I set the tank to 18psi right?

 

[Reach4]

I'm literally only using this pump to water the front and back yard so as long as it physically turns off and doesnt cycle like someone is playing spoons (which is what it was doing without a tank at all lol) I will be good.

If you don't block the output, and hook up the sprinklers before turning on the pump, you could turn up the pressure switch so it stays on. Turn both nuts clockwise to compress the springs, and the pressure should not rise high enough to turn the pump off. I am not a pro.

 

[Bannerman]

A 2-gallon tank will hold only about 0.5 gallons water. If the pump is delivering 17 GPM, then it will continue to cycle itself to death. Using a small amount of water such as for watering grass using a garden hose makes matters worse. The best situation is to always use all of the water the pump can move (ie: 17 GPM) so the tank will not fill and the pressure will not rise to 40 psi until no further water is being used.

A CSV will change how water is delivered as it will regulate pump output flow so the pump will only deliver the actual amount of water needed, regardless if that is 2 GPM or 17 GPM or anything in between. The flow will also be regulated to a constant pressure such as 30 psi instead of continually falling from 40 to 20 and rising from 20 to 40 psi.

Instead of attempting the cheapest solution for someone else to worry about, consider spending a little more $ for the correct solution which can be highlighted as a premium feature which may result in obtaining a higher selling price for the property.

 

[Stackz]

well, I just want to make sure we are all on the same page here.

when this is all said and done, the spigot will have an automatic irrigation timer on it. all I care about is that once the irrigation timer turns off (no water flowing) that the pump will actually turn off. right now, with no tank at all, its not even doing that. it just super quick cycles. it wont even say...hey my pressure is 40psi I will stop and be quiet now.

when the timer comes on it will just run the whole time. no worries. right now with the pressure switch hooked up and the spigot open (sprinklers running) it runs constantly pumping that good ole water for me. its just that when the spigot is closed, it goes haywire and wont even turn off properly. its literally switching on/off like 3x/second. I'm hoping this is because well, water doesnt compress and I dont have an air bladder of any type inline to help build pressure which the pressure switch can fully recognize?

or am I thinking weirdly about it?

 

[Reach4]

I'm hoping this is because well, water doesnt compress and I dont have an air bladder of any type inline to help build pressure which the pressure switch can fully recognize?

That is an ok way to think about it. So what would that lead you to do?

 

[Stackz]

Add an air tank, I got a 2 gallon tank from true value as their display was a 1hp gould's pump with the very same tank going right to a pair of spigots. My setup basically mirrors this but it sounds like everyone is telling me I either need a massive tank or a csv or my pump will die in like a month. Why do so many pumps come with these tiny booster tanks otherwise?

 

[Valveman]

Do you have a check valve?

 

[Reach4]

If you can make the load use as much water as the pump can produce below the cut-off pressure, the small tank can work for irrigation with a small tank. So with the irrigation on and spraying, I would turn the nut on the big spring clockwise enough (but not too much) so that the pump does not turn off while sprinkling. That can work if the zones take close to the same amount of water. I would make this adjustment for the zone that uses the lowest flow.

Don't adjust the nut on the small spring.

Make sure the pump turns off when the flow stops.

Set the air precharge to 5 psi below what the pump turns on at. Air precharge is measured and set when the water pressure is zero.

You see the little tanks on pumps because they are cheaper, not because they are good.

 

[Stackz]

I will definitely do this. after having my primary house converted to inground sprinkling I took all the hoses and sprinklers over to the old house. here at my house, two zones with 3 of those super big sprinklers kept the pump running at around 30psi constant. if it wants to cycle up over at the other house, I will simply add another sprinkler. same pump there as what I have here. I just didnt have a spare 40 gallon tank and we are wanting to list the house this weekend after seeding.

the sprinklers are all those super big ones you get from lowes.

when you say (turn big spring) you mean the big one in the dead middle of the pressure switch right? its the only one I can think of.

"make sure the pump turns off when the flow stops" yes, this is the big thing I want to accomplish. not the whole stupid fast cycling on/off that it does right now. I want to be able to not have to go over there and manually water.

 

[Reach4]

when you say (turn big spring) you mean the big one in the dead middle of the pressure switch right?

Yes. I meant to say the nut on the big spring. Oh, wait. I did say nut. Middle on one axis.

The range nut.

 

[Valveman]

Again, do you have a check valve?

 

[Stackz]

It has a foot valve so it won't lose prime if that's what you mean. I pulled up the well liner about 6 years ago and put a new one on before updating the well head fr the super duper old setup my grandpa had. Holds prime just fine

 

[Valveman]

"make sure the pump turns off when the flow stops" yes, this is the big thing I want to accomplish. not the whole stupid fast cycling on/off that it does right now. I want to be able to not have to go over there and manually water.

If it only cycles when the water is shut off and the pump should stop, the pressure switch could be too far from the tank, or the foot valve is not holding under pressure.

 

[Stackz]

ok well hopefully when I put the tank on this weekend then that will solve the issue. right now there just isnt a tank at all. when you look at the first pic you can see the pump housing where I have the pressure gauge and switch attached directly to the pump housing and then right next to that I have a small length of pipe feeding directly to the spigot which comes up pretty much just above the pressure switch (I was doing all this for testing purposes, I was going to lengthen the pipe/spigot to come out of the well pump house once I bolt down the pump).

I'm going to leave the gauge/switch where they are but do a 90* bend for the pipe and come over about 1' and then put a T and then put the tank off the T on the top and then keep going another 3' with the pipe to a spigot outside the pump house. super simple and compact. the pump house is about the size of a toilet box if that makes sense. its super tight.

in the past my grandpa had the myers 1909 pump jammed in there and he cut a small hole into the garage where he had a big copper water tank. apparently a set of renters who disappeared on me 4 years ago decided it was ok to cut the tank out and steal it and break the myers pump trying to steal it as well.

 

[Stackz]

ok, well my eyes are opened. thank you guys! I still have questions though. sooo....

took a bit of leave today as other things got done, went over and plumbed everything. I know, it looks bad and I could have routed different but oh well. it is what it is. it was fun priming it I will say that by taking the expansion tank off and using a garden hose until it it gushed in my face and then I put the tank back on while it was gushing....fun times. I know...probably put in a port T to fill/prime with up by the tank.

anyway, its weird that it holds pressure on the low side. I did NOT check the tank pre-charge before install...just wanted proof of concept first...and I got it. I ran two sprinklers and it would cycle somewhat fast (with the 2 gallon tank and nothing on it held pressure and didnt cycle except maybe once/20 seconds) better than what it was.

anyway, with the sprinklers running I decided to just open another sprinkler port and boom! constant pressure and it rose to 30psi actually. meaning I will probably just daisy chain all sprinklers on the same line until it cant keep up( or barely) and then overlap them. god knows the yard can use the water...

either way. I will probably try a cycle stop valve on my main house so I can drop down to a smaller tank vs the old 50 year old pre-bladder tank I've been nursing. on the house I'm selling? not so much. I'm ok with it kinda cycling once I get it to stop at almost turn on pressure? is that possible with adjusting the tank pressure? again...I havent checked it out of the box. people say locally to set it with no water pressure to 2 psi below cut off. on here, I've been told 5psi. its a 20/40 switch that I havent touched.

 

[Stackz]

second pic was at system rest before I turned on the spigot. it would quickly turn on/off once every 30 seconds or so which was SOOO much better than beating itself to death before the 2 gallon tank was added.

if I feel squirrely I will plumb the old piping you see empty back into the system. that runs two ground spigots at other points on the property which will probably help with the pressure differential as they are like 40' and 80' from the pump house you see.

and yes, thats an old cast iron "fish cutting table" from here on the coast. and it IS plumbed into the main sewer...if I hook up that one line so the sink is energized again.

 

[Stackz]

Don't know where to get an o-ring like that. Good luck with that! But when you get the pump working you will either need to run it manually, with no pressure switch, or you will need to add a pressure tank. With a 17 GPM pump you will need at least a 60+ gallon size pressure tank that holds about 17 gallons. Pumps need to run a minimum of 1 minute, 2 minutes would be better, and never turning off when using water is best. After you price a couple of those tanks you will find that the CSV is not expensive. With a CSV you can use a little 4.5 gallon size tank as the CSV will keep the pump from cycling while you are using water. Without a CSV the larger the pressure tank the fewer times the pump cycles, but it still cycles on and off repeatedly while you are using water. With a CSV the pump does not cycle, so you can use a smaller and less expensive tank. The complete PK1A kit comes with the tank, switch, gauge, relief valve, etc., as well as the CSV1A Cycle Stop Valve for $395.00. And there is no comparison as to how the CSV works up next to a regular old style pressure switch/pressure tank only system.

ok, you got me now.

I got it all setup and I can get the backyard to run perfectly on the setup. doesnt cycle and the sprinklers all pump the water I want them to.

front yard I guess maybe the hose is too long or something? I even swapped the sprinklers I was using in the backyard to the front yard thinking maybe the ones I had in the front yard were broken or something but for whatever reason it wants to fast cycle the front yard.

what is the difference between the CSV125-1 cycle stop valve and the CSV1A?? I would much rather put a $70 valve on the system than a $150 tank. I dont think I need the $200 valve for what I want to do but I'm not sure?

also, like a moron I didnt even check the tank out of the box before installing it which could be my issue but I'd rather just have the valve ordered and only de-pressurize the system once...

I cant really tell but it looks like it goes on the output after the expansion tank but inline??

 

[Bannerman]

Try connecting the backyard hose to the front spigot.
If no change, connect the front yard hose to the rear yard hose to feed the front yard sprinklers from the rear spigot. If this results in any improvement, will indicate a flow restriction in the supply piping to the front spigot.

A CSV will go between the pump and the expansion tank & pressure switch.