New to Site - Toilet Flange Question

[Shubox56]

Hi guys

I'm replacing thin glued down floor tiles and replacing with a floating LVP, in doing so, my flange is going from a 1/8 above the finished floor to a strong 1/16 below the finished floor. I know that in a perfect world the flange would be roughly 3/8 above --- will the 1 1/4 extra thick wax ring address the change in flooring?

I previously had a toilet leak issue that was likely my fault --- failure to inspect and maintain. A Subfloor patch was required. :-(

Thanks in advance!

 

[Tughillrzr]

Go get flange spacer 1/4” thick or get a kit. Kit comes in variety of thicknesses

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Not bad. No spacer needed. Have your shims in place before dropping the toilet onto the wax. You don't want to expand wax, only compress.

The question would be what wax or combination you would use -- regular wax on the bottom, and wax with horn on top?

A question to think about is how is the floor going to float with the toilet pressing down? I think the answer would be that it would be pinned down at that area. And thus you would want the gap at the wall to allow for thermal expansion with that in mind. I would want more gap on the side with a longer length from the toilet to the wall to accommodate more expansion. I am not a plumber. I would like to hear other discussion on this.

The alternative to pinning down the floor at the toilet would be to have a gap around the toilet. I don't know that anybody does that.

 

[Tughillrzr]

Not bad. No spacer needed. Have your shims in place before dropping the toilet onto the wax. You don't want to expand wax, only compress.

The question would be what wax or combination you would use -- regular wax on the bottom, and wax with horn on top?

A question to think about is how is the floor going to float with the toilet pressing down? I think the answer would be that it would be pinned down at that area. And thus you would want the gap at the wall to allow for thermal expansion with that in mind. I would want more gap on the side with a longer length from the toilet to the wall to accommodate more expansion. I am not a plumber. I would like to hear other discussion on this.

The alternative to pinning down the floor at the toilet would be to have a gap around the toilet. I don't know that anybody does that.

I have used lvp floor on several slab floors in bathrooms with radiant never an issue with movement. Planks are like 72” long. I’ve been perpendicular and parallel to toilet with flooring. Why use shims if no need for them. I have had to grind a little before setting toilet. But I had that option cause I was also the floor installer. Extra thick Wax w horn is best. Like stated above the 1/16 “ gap isn’t bad at all. You have the option to level flange w floor or above.

 

[Reach4]

Why use shims if no need for them.

The main purpose is to prevent rocking. Rocking messes up a wax seal.

I have had to grind a little before setting toilet.

Grind what -- the toilet? The flooring? Shims have to be easier. The acrylic caulk around the front 80% hides shims, because you cut the shims off so they don't stick out.

 

[Tughillrzr]

The main purpose is to prevent rocking. Rocking messes up a wax seal.

Grind what -- the toilet? The flooring? Shims have to be easier. The acrylic caulk around the front 80% hides shims, because you cut the shims off so they don't stick out.

Yes I know the point of shims! He didn’t say toilet rocked. It’s not even installed.


I had the option of grinding concrete floor around toilet flange to make sure it set level. Took less then 5 min w grinder and vac. Yes i know the steps of installing shims. Caulk is unsightly if not needed. Some have mentioned inspectors require it. Idk why. the toilet not set so why would he need shims or caulk it? definitely not acrylic caulk. Think terry mentioned once poly seal or something like that. I’m sure all have a go to sealant.

 

[Shubox56]

Thanks guys. The subfloor and underlayment that the toilet will sit on is close to level as is the flange. Perfect? It's not, but I don't think it's off enough to be a issue. It's close in all directions and no sags/dips when running a straight edge over the new subfloor patch that was installed by a carpenter. The patch due to a previous toilet leak.

Like two people have said, I was hoping that the 1/16th deficit (flange under finished floor) would not be a major issue. I'm hoping that a 1.25" wax ring will be all that's required. Carefully Park the toilet on the wax ring and bolted down and call it a day. I'm hoping it's that simple. God knows I don't want a repeat leading to another patch job years from now.

As for the floating floor: I have not heard about anyone having an issue placing the toilet over a floating plank floor. Though I do agree, on paper it seems to be a POTENTIAL issue. That said, I definitely don't want to park the toilet on the underlayment and floor around it. Some have done that, but quite honestly, I don't like the look. And I also do not believe in caulking the base of the toilet. If there's a leak, the last thing I want is to have the water trapped under the toilets. That can lead to only one thing, water seeping down into the flooring below. IMHO

I truly appreciate all the various opinions.

 

[Terry]

I always check to see if I will be shimming. I carry some really nice rubber ones that trim off easily.
I always use a clear caulking most of the way around the bowl, leaving it out at the back near the wall. It's plumbing code most places and without it you don't pass the inspection. Sorry, but there are good reasons for it.

1 - It helps to secure the bowl to the floor.
2- If a little man stands in front and pees on the floor, you don't wind up with urine under the bowl.
3- If it's an old guy and his ding dong isn't pointed downward, the urine drips over the front of the bowl, and under it. Man that sucks!

I use a clear caulking that turns clear overnight. I have to tell customers that or they will think that I forgot to do it.
If there is a leak, God Forbid, it turns white again and you know it's leaking. Doesn't really happen on my installs though. I set them securely and seals don't fail for me. I also make sure I've used enough wax. If the flange is lower than the finished floor, it's a deep wax or two rings stacked. Been doing this for decades, and it's amazingly wonderful how it turns out. No brag, just fact.

For the handyman above that grinds a concrete floor when it's most likely a clay toilet that came out of the kiln a bit off, I gotta say, how is that working for ya on tile, wood and vinyl?
Was that a time you were working in a warehouse?

 

[Shubox56]

Ok, that could work. As long as there's somewhere for the water to escape, in this case in the rear, I would feel better about it.

I've never heard of a clear caulk that turns white when wet. Interesting! But I'm guessing if there's a minor slow leak that rots the floor beneath over years, that the amount of moisture wouldn't be enough to turn the caulk white?

Though not commonly done, I'm adding a 6 mil moisture barrier over the underlayment and under the planking. It's common over a slab, but not a plywood subfloor/underlayment. In this case, I'm not preventing moisture from rising, but keeping as much water as possible from being absorbed into the flooring beneath. I have a buddy that's a floor installer who said the idea is fine. No issues. We will call it an insurance plan. So if there's a breach in the seal, the water hitting the poly sheet should exit out the rear if I follow Terry's suggestion.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks guys. The subfloor and underlayment that the toilet will sit on is close to level as is the flange. Perfect? It's not, but I don't think it's off enough to be a issue.

Toilet bases are is not necessarily flat.

 

[Terry]

Toilet bases are is not necessarily flat.

I don't think Shubox56 has set many toilets before or he would know that toilet bowls often don't sit well on a flat floor. And sometimes the floor itself is a little wonky. It may be the bowl, and it may be the floor. Either way it's good to check. My grandson is replacing a toilet in Bellingham today that his grandmother was having issues with. Whoever set the one they have now never got it to set right. Mason will be making sure the new toilet is done right. He's helped me in the field before and knows how we do it.

 

[Shubox56]

I don't think Shubox56 has set many toilets before or he would know that toilet bowls often don't sit well on a flat floor. And sometimes the floor itself is a little wonky. It may be the bowl, and it may be the floor. Either way it's good to check. My grandson is replacing a toilet in Bellingham today that his grandmother was having issues with. Whoever set the one they have now never got it to set right. Mason will be making sure the new toilet is done right. He's helped me in the field before and knows how we do it.

Amen, Terry! I've only replaced one toilet in my 65 years on the planet. That toilet I removed 10 years ago was on a concrete slab and went without any issues. That said, I don't know JACK about what can go wrong, hence my reason for being here. I'm hoping to avoid some mistakes --- I have two toilets to install over the next 30 days. I'm currently working on bathroom floors in preparation. I'm also researching the best toilet for the dollar spent. I'm not sure what brand toilet the builder put in this house 25 years ago, but boy are they terrible. They were from day one. They clog virtually every couple days which may have led to blowing out the wax ring on the two toilets upstairs which led to the leaking and subsequent floor rot. All of that is water under the subfloor at this point (ha ha), so hopefully I will find a top rated toilet that substantially reduces the amount of clogging. As time permits I've been reading some of the articles here on this site.

 

[Terry]

1996, 3.5 gallon toilets reduced down from 5.0 and higher. Even though it's more than what they use now, they do a better job with the new ones. They have to. If you look at the trapway of the old stuff, it was surprising that they worked as well as they did. There is better testing now, and sites that publish that information.
https://www.map-testing.com/
Pretty much anything TOTO works very well. I like the Drake CST744E series, The Drake II CST454CEFG, The Ultramax II MS604114CEFG
Kohler makes good stuff now. Highline, Cimarron, Wellworth
American Standard has the Cadet Pro series that I like.

https://terrylove.com/crtoilet.htm

I have never like the shelf beyond the outlet.

This one looks pretty tight up at the top.

 

[Shubox56]

1996, 3.5 gallon toilets reduced down from 5.0 and higher. Even though it's more than what they use now, they do a better job with the new ones. They have to. If you look at the trapway of the old stuff, it was surprising that they worked as well as they did. There is better testing now, and sites that publish that information.
https://www.map-testing.com/
Pretty much anything TOTO works very well. I like the Drake CST744E series, The Drake II CST454CEFG, The Ultramax II MS604114CEFG
Kohler makes good stuff now. Highline, Cimarron, Wellworth
American Standard has the Cadet Pro series that I like.

https://terrylove.com/crtoilet.htm

Thanks, Terry. I'll check out all the names you mentioned. I was at the orange box earlier this morning and was looking at the American Standard Champion 4 series --- the marketing cut my eye. The whole flushing balls down the chute. How does that compare to the names mentioned?

 

[Terry]

I prefer the Cadet series over the Champion. I would never install a Champion in my own home.

 

[Shubox56]

Thanks, Terry. I'll check out all the names you mentioned. I was at the orange box earlier this morning and was looking at the American Standard Champion 4 series --- the marketing cut my eye. The whole flushing balls down the chute. How does that compare to the names mentioned?

It's crazy to think that 1.28 gal of water will result in substantially less clogs compared to the water hungry toilets I currently have. Awesome, but difficult to understand. I guess there's a lot to be said about an improved design.

Out of curiosity, is there any benefit to a taller seating toilet and elongated versus a standard height and/or round?