This doesn't look right, but I think it meets code?

[ADK_MechETech]

I'm semi-finishing my basement and there will be a clothes washer and utility sink draining into a liberty 404 sump.

Washer is no problem, but where the pump and sink are located are close quarters. I have verified clearances for my boiler and I have plenty of room. What I dry fit is a threaded adapter > union > wye. The upper 45 degree of the wye has a street 45 and goes off to the washer drain with a vent along the run. My plan is to put a long sweep 90 on the bottom and out the wall to serve the sink. The vent for the pump will come off the top port of the cover.

Please excuse the mess. I've had to work inside all winter and it's a disaster.

Pictures:

 

[wwhitney]

If everything is sloped properly, I don't see any issue with the drainage arrangement pictured.

But check the manual on the pump as far as the vent. I believe most (all?) of them require an atmospheric vent, (i.e. a connection to a vent line that goes through your roof), so they can both inhale and exhale so to speak. An AAV only allows inhaling.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ADK_MechETech]

If everything is sloped properly, I don't see any issue with the drainage arrangement pictured.

But check the manual on the pump as far as the vent. I believe most (all?) of them require an atmospheric vent, (i.e. a connection to a vent line that goes through your roof), so they can both inhale and exhale so to speak. An AAV only allows inhaling.

Cheers, Wayne

Thank you, yes drains have 1/4" per foot slope. I am tying into a 1st floor vent that is relatively convenient above flood line of the highest fixture. That vent goes to a 3" stack through the roof, which should also be good. That one vent only serves a shower on the 1st floor which shouldn't exceed the DFU for it.

 

[wwhitney]

Ah, looking at your picture more closely, I see that at the top of the basin I mistook half a union joint for a fitting to attach an AAV.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ADK_MechETech]

Ah, looking at your picture more closely, I see that at the top of the basin I mistook half a union joint for a fitting to attach an AAV.

Cheers, Wayne

Hah, no worries. Unions everywhere for serviceability just in case!

 

[ADK_MechETech]

Circling back around on this as it just came to my attention that under IPC (where I am) when the Laundry joins another branch it must be increased to 3". That is not possible here, and would be another code violation as the inlet to the liberty is only 2" as it is. There is literally less than 12" of pipe after the two lines join here.

If this is now not code compliant, then there would be basically no way you could ever use one of these pumps or one like it to serve anything other than a washing machine.... Am I missing something here? The sink can't really be considered a laundry sink as it is in the other room.

 

[James Henry]

The pump you have is mainly designed to go in a cabinet and only serve one sink or on the floor and serve a laundry sink, it's really not designed for a washing machine. the inlet to the pump has a filter in it, I suspect that will occasionally get clogged with lint, if it does, the pump wont come on and your stand pipe will back up. I would give it some thought as to whether you really need a stand pipe or if you can suffice with just a laundry sink.

 

[ADK_MechETech]

The issue is, I have no use, desire, or room to put a laundry sink next to the washing machine. The utility sink will be in a separate space and serve a workshop area. This particular pump was recommended to me by members here and is capable of passing up to 3/8" solids (supposedly). I'm sure the pump has some sort of screen in it, and yes I expect it will need service once in a while. There is little difference whether I drain the washer into a sink or standpipe as far as what comes out of the washer. I am planning to have an alarm on it and a water shutoff in the event it does back up.

Regarding the code question, does it pass as it sits now? As an alternative, can I instead drain the utility sink into the side port by itself, and use a santee to drain the laundry into the top port and also serve as the basin vent?

 

[James Henry]

As an alternative, can I instead drain the utility sink into the side port by itself, and use a santee to drain the laundry into the top port and also serve as the basin vent?

The way you have it is fine. You'll find out if it can keep up with the washer. I strongly suggest a lint trap of some kind on the washer drain line.

 

[ADK_MechETech]

The inspector says it must be transitioned to 3" per IPC 406.2. This is not possible for reasons stated above. Liberty says that one port must be a a dedicated vent. So it seems there is no way you could ever use one of these to serve anything other than a washer unless you discharge to a utility sink and not a stand pipe. That is quite disappointing as I am certain there would be no issues with what I wanted to do.

I have asked if it would be possible to get an exception for the reasons mentioned above. We'll see what he says.

 

[wwhitney]

Short of getting a different pump with 3 entries or arranging for the sink and standpipe to share a single trap, it would seem to me that given IPC 406.2 the best option would be to combine the vent and the sink discharge into the top entry of the basin. The pump would be wet vented but I expect it would work fine. [The way you originally plumbed it would be better, in my opinion, and complies with the UPC on the drainage side, but not IPC 406.2.]

If there were such a thing as a 2 x 1-1/2 x 1-/2 baffle tee or wye, where the two inlets have separate channels to the outlet, that would work nicely to split the top entry on the basin into two 1-1/2" entries. But a brief search didn't turn up anything like that.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ADK_MechETech]

Short of getting a different pump with 3 entries or arranging for the sink and standpipe to share a single trap, it would seem to me that given IPC 406.2 the best option would be to combine the vent and the sink discharge into the top entry of the basin. The pump would be wet vented but I expect it would work fine. [The way you originally plumbed it would be better, in my opinion, and complies with the UPC on the drainage side, but not IPC 406.2.]

If there were such a thing as a 2 x 1-1/2 x 1-/2 baffle tee or wye, where the two inlets have separate channels to the outlet, that would work nicely to split the top entry on the basin into two 1-1/2" entries. But a brief search didn't turn up anything like that.

Cheers, Wayne

That was my first thought, and the inspector said it was OK "if allowed by the manufacturer".

Unfortunately it is not. As I mentioned, one port must be dedicated to ventIng only. I also expect that arrangement would work fine since I don't know how I could ever fill a 2" pipe completely unless I put a commercial 2" drain in the sink, and probably not even then. Also, the sink is actually a single bay stainless commercial kitchen sink, not that it matters.

The sink isn't critical but would be very nice to have. For now I'm going to keep it as it is and just put a cap on it so I can get the rest of this project done. I may revisit asking for an exception at some point.

 

[wwhitney]

One more thought--I suspect that the requirement in the IPC for a 3" drain line when a washer standpipe drain joins another fixture's drain is due to the possibility of the use of an AAV for the other drain's vent, and that AAVs may have trouble keeping up with washer discharge rates. The reason I suspect that is somewhat tenuous: another thread mentioned Los Angeles's allowance for the use of AAVs (California follows the UPC, which does not include provisions for AAVs), and the referenced document includes under the list of conditions for their use a requirement for 3" minimum drain size when a washer standpipe joins another drain.

So if my suspicion is correct, and if you can find documentation of it (e.g. dig up the old IPC code change proposal that added the 3" requirement to 406.2 and look at the substantiation submitted, assuming that's publicly available), then you could try running the idea past your inspector that since you aren't using any AAVs on your pump basin, it's appropriate to waive IPC 406.2 in your case. (Assuming that's true that you don't plan on any AAVs).

A bit of a long shot, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ADK_MechETech]

Good info. I had originally started this thinking we were under UPC here.

I believe the change occurred between 2000 and 2003, but I have yet to locate any relevant information on why the change was proposed. I'm still working my google-fu to track something down. You have me curious now.

*Edit

The best I could find through ProQuest access through my school's alumni system is an article written by Julius Ballanco whom I gather proposed the ammendment. It seems as though venting was not a consideration, but the higher flow of newer washing machines. Article linked below since it's too large to attach.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmL5M_KJ2BK-97DNGd7bWACbOJZ28DHP/view?usp=sharing

 

[ADK_MechETech]

Ok, so here's another dumb question..... The inspector wants a 10' water column test of the DWV system. He said to cap off the pump discharge (I have a valve), and I assumed to also leave the vent tie-in on the 1st floor open to fill with water. Fine.

I have all the plumbing done to that point and I wanted to verify everything was good before filling it with water so I put a few PSI of air in the system to check for major leaks. Soapy water found the threaded outlet was leaking at the pump which turned out to be a crappy molding on the adapter. I filed off the parting line ridges and it sealed fine.

Now, after repressurizing to ~4psi, the gland on the lid of the sump where the cables exit is leaking. Everything else in the system is fine. Liberty says that the basin is not rated for that and it will never pass a 10' water column test. Maybe I misunderstood the inspector, or he misundertood the system, but how exactly do people usually test these? Do I have to isolate the basin completely?

 

[wwhitney]

Given that Liberty says the basin is not designed to hold 10' WC pressure, isolating it would seem the simplest approach. Since you used unions, you should be able to remove it, and make up new caps with half a union joint to seal off the connections to the pump basin.

Or if the only thing leaking is the cable gland, you could try to figure out how to seal it. But there's also the question of an airway path within the cord sheath itself. I recall a sump pump having an intentional air opening in the cord near the plug, I forget the reason.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

One more thought--I suspect that the requirement in the IPC for a 3" drain line when a washer standpipe drain joins another fixture's drain is due to the possibility of the use of an AAV for the other drain's vent, and that AAVs may have trouble keeping up with washer discharge rates. The reason I suspect that is somewhat tenuous: another thread mentioned Los Angeles's allowance for the use of AAVs (California follows the UPC, which does not include provisions for AAVs), and the referenced document includes under the list of conditions for their use a requirement for 3" minimum drain size when a washer standpipe joins another drain.

So if my suspicion is correct, and if you can find documentation of it (e.g. dig up the old IPC code change proposal that added the 3" requirement to 406.2 and look at the substantiation submitted, assuming that's publicly available), then you could try running the idea past your inspector that since you aren't using any AAVs on your pump basin, it's appropriate to waive IPC 406.2 in your case. (Assuming that's true that you don't plan on any AAVs).

A bit of a long shot, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

Cheers, Wayne

Often when I'm trying to look up codes, I get onto the IAPMO or similar site and read a bunch of dry back and forth between guys arguing mundane bits of reasoning of code.. and likely something like this would have been brought up and discussed in one of those online forums. I don't have any bookmarked unfortunately.

 

[ADK_MechETech]

Well, the inspector hasn't responded to my last two questions, so I am just going to leave out the sink for now. I put valves on all 3 connections to the basin so I can isolate it. When he comes for the inspection he can decide how he wants to test it.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

We always just plug the pipes going in and out of a basin..

We had a massive grease interceptor that had 3 manhole covers that were connected by 24" fernco couplings.. my guys were trying to pressure test it.. but since the lids were full of air, they would blow off. They even lifted a guy who tried standing on the lid.

 

[ADK_MechETech]

I finally got ahold of the inspector on the phone yesterday. He is fine (in my situation) testing with air. Code requires water, but it is more critical when there is plumbing below the slab. Since I have very minimal plumbing and it is all accessible he is good with isolating the basin and just testing with air. Inspection schduled for Thursday afternoon. I spent a couple hours yesterday buttoning everything up and making sure all my wiring was secured.